Jellico/Shelby

[Sgt_G]

I wonder how changing crew rotations affected the situation... but I'm not a captain so, maybe it does?

Up-topic, I posted why it should have been fairly easy to switch form a three-shift to four-shift schedule. As to why do this, the reason is that the longer the duty shift is, the more likely mistakes will be made, especially in a high-stress situation. He wanted people to be as fresh as possible once the shooting starts.

Nice analysis.

Agreed.

 

[JesterFace]

Well.. it seems like Riker really was someone who was hard to deal with. Shelby did do the right call and went to investigate the planet before a storm hit the area. Why she didn't let Riker know, that's the question, maybe Riker gave her some attitude because of that.

I stand corrected, except in the case of changing shift rotations, maybe it was something that needed more time to happen correctly and Jellico was a bit too fast on his orders.

 

[Sgt_G]

changing shift rotations, maybe it was something that needed more time to happen correctly

Jellico initially said he wanted the switch to happen "starting tonight", giving personnel a 12+ hour lead-time. Trust me, that's plenty of time. It's not like they had to recall anyone back from a weekend trip to Yosemite.

 

[Makarov]

I was waiting for someone to mention that, because the reason he had was that Shelby at first acted indifferent to his authority, which is exactly what he did to Jellico, and he reacted exactly the way Jellico did, by asserting that authority with little regard for Shelby's side of things.

He didn't really react the same way as Jellico though. Both times he took her aside to talk about these issues, not cut her down in front of Picard. And at the end of the day Riker found a way to work with her.

She was right and was able to convince Picard that she was. Riker was in the way. Instead of spurring things on as was his role, he kept holding them back.

Picard decides somewhere in between Riker and Shelby though. Here's his response:

PICARD: Yes, I entirely agree with you, Number One. It's not the time. But the time may come when we will be required to take greater risks. I want you to consider her plan as a fall back position. Make the necessary preparations.

The amount of Riker bashing is way beyond what's in the actual show in my opinion. How can one watch BoBW and conclude the message is that Riker is in the way. He used his connection to Picard plus Shelby's saucer separation plan to defeat the cube.

Star trek as I understand it is meant to be a story about people working together as a team... and this is ultimately the message Riker sends and Jellico just isn't very good at. Just take a look at the difference here between these lines and consider who is better at leading people:

RIKER: Commander, we don't have to like each other to work well together. As a fact of fact, I'd like you to continue to keep me on my toes.

JELLICO: Let's drop the ranks for a moment. I don't like you. I think you're insubordinate, arrogant. wilful, and I don't think you're a particularly good first officer. But you are also the best pilot on the ship.

 

[Discofan]

Riker often let his ego take precedence over the mission.

 

[Makarov]

Unlike Riker holding back Jellico's time table by refusing to carry out a change in crew allotment, because he didn't agree with it. In both cases, Riker expects he has final say, & while he does in Shelby's case (It would appear) she too has been granted certain liberties by the admiral that brought her, so it's at least understandable & forgivable to assume she might make a misstep & someone's tender little toes might get in the way

Riker didn't expect to have final say on the shift rotations and he didn't refuse to carry out the order either, he wanted to talk to him about the issues, most likely hoping to talk him out of it, that is all. With other captains that seems to be normal first officer behavior, but too slow for Jellico. And it wasn't about him disagreeing with it either, it was the department heads - people he works with and knows.

If he had heard him out then the audience could judge whether the objection is reasonable for delaying the order, but we don't get that info

 

[Mojochi]

Riker didn't expect to have final say on the shift rotations and he didn't refuse to carry out the order either, he wanted to talk to him about the issues, most likely hoping to talk him out of it, that is all.

Hoping to talk him out of it, means he doesn't agree with it... for whatever reason. Thinking the order shouldn't be carried out until it can be negotiated is bad enough, but holding off on it, expecting it should be rescinded is even worse. It's saying "I'm not doing this... at least not yet, because he shouldn't have asked for it, or he should've conferred with me about it more 1st".

Holding off on carrying out an order IS refusing to carry it out. When an order is carried out is part of carrying it out, especially if the order specifically deals with time. If I say "Fire" & my subordinate says "Not yet", it's the same as saying no. That's surely an extreme example, but the concept is still the same. That's how orders work. When a time to be carried out is given, that's the order.

He said to change it tonight. Not as soon as possible. Not when you think it's best, or get the chance. He gives a time by which the order should be carried out. Riker chooses to not do that. He usurps the captain's authority by keeping the situation as is, based on his own interpretation of what other subordinates are saying etc... etc... none of which apply to what the captain commanded

Granted, it's a minor refusal. It's not a terribly big deal, & Jellico treats it that way. He just reorders it a little more sternly, & lets it go, with the exception of it somewhat shaping his opinion of his new 1st officer, because that was literally the 1st order he gave the man, & the answer came back "Pffft… when I get to say what I got to say about it maybe"

 

[Discofan]

Riker didn't expect to have final say on the shift rotations and he didn't refuse to carry out the order either, he wanted to talk to him about the issues, most likely hoping to talk him out of it, that is all. With other captains that seems to be normal first officer behavior, but too slow for Jellico. And it wasn't about him disagreeing with it either, it was the department heads - people he works with and knows.

If he had heard him out then the audience could judge whether the objection is reasonable for delaying the order, but we don't get that info

The time to talk him out of it was immediately after he gave the order and in the ready room, not in the open after Jellico was rightfully expecting that the order was given and executed. If Riker wanted to undermine Jellico's authority he wouldn't have behaved differently.

 

[Mojochi]

The time to talk him out of it was immediately after he gave the order and in the ready room, not in the open after Jellico was rightfully expecting that the order was given and executed. If Riker wanted to undermine Jellico's authority he wouldn't have behaved differently.

Right. If there was a legitimate objection to be made, Riker should've been on his game enough to make it immediately, not wait until the thing should already have been done & then backpedal about why he didn't do it. It's just bad form

 

[Admiral2]

He didn't really react the same way as Jellico though. Both times he took her aside to talk about these issues, not cut her down in front of Picard.

But he did cut her down. The setting doesn't change the end result.

And at the end of the day Riker found a way to work with her.

And Jellico found a way to work with Riker. The method was called "I can't stand you but I can use you, so I'll use you." He was absolutely right. They didn't have to like each other to work together. Are you totally in love with every single person you work with?

The amount of Riker bashing is way beyond what's in the actual show in my opinion. How can one watch BoBW and conclude the message is that Riker is in the way.

Simple. He was in the way, and he put himself there. Shelby said as much.

Look, Picard and Riker's mutual superior brought her aboard because she was an expert at identifying the Borg and she wanted to get right to it, but Riker was too busy getting his back up about her alpha person drive to let her do it.

He was also in his own way, frankly. There is nothing about working for Picard that would make me give up my own command three times. In real life somebody like Shelby would have leap-frogged over his stiff Imzadi ass, and he'd deserve it.

He used his connection to Picard plus Shelby's saucer separation plan to defeat the cube.

Only after she failed to kiss his ring before embarking on the away mission that told them there was a Borg threat in the first place.

Star trek as I understand it is meant to be a story about people working together as a team...

But its not with the expectation that everyone would get along perfectly in that team. Try watching an episode of TOS some time.

and this is ultimately the message Riker sends and Jellico just isn't very good at. Just take a look at the difference here between these lines and consider who is better at leading people:

RIKER: Commander, we don't have to like each other to work well together. As a fact of fact, I'd like you to continue to keep me on my toes.

JELLICO: Let's drop the ranks for a moment. I don't like you. I think you're insubordinate, arrogant. wilful, and I don't think you're a particularly good first officer. But you are also the best pilot on the ship.

Neither is an indicator of superior leadership skills, because they both said the exact same thing. The only difference is Riker was conciliatory and Jellico wasn't. I assume you think the conciliation makes Riker a better leader, but there are plenty of ways a nice guy can suck as a leader and plenty of ways an asshole can be a gifted leader. How they talk and get along with people are not the only indicators.

 

[Schimpfy]

So, I've been thinking about this whole debacle with Jellico making the crew go to a four shift rotation. To me this makes absolutely no sense, especially in preparation for an oncoming war. He's effectually reducing manning per shift by 25%. I understand that it would appear to be a good idea by having shorter shifts to aid in crew alertness, but on the flip side those same people are going to have to take up the slack for the fact that they're operating at 75% normal ops manning. Realistically, he should've gone from three shifts to two in the short term and he would have a net increase of 150% manning per shift. Of course, we don't really know the intricacies of Starfleet personnelist issues so...

 

[Makarov]

And Jellico found a way to work with Riker. The method was called "I can't stand you but I can use you, so I'll use you." He was absolutely right. They didn't have to like each other to work together. Are you totally in love with every single person you work with?

Jellico didn't find a way since they weren't working together at that point. Riker was sitting chilling in his quarters while Jellico wandered around looking for a pilot, after presumably setting up a new first officer. That is pretty bad

Neither is an indicator of superior leadership skills, because they both said the exact same thing. The only difference is Riker was conciliatory and Jellico wasn't. I assume you think the conciliation makes Riker a better leader, but there are plenty of ways a nice guy can suck as a leader and plenty of ways an asshole can be a gifted leader. How they talk and get along with people are not the only indicators.

The difference is if he was better with people he could have got Riker on his side there, instead he uses it as an opportunity to vent his list of issues with Riker yet again. They end the conversation disliking each other even more. How he would be able to control the crew in an actual war situation if he can't even do that, is questionable..

He was also in his own way, frankly. There is nothing about working for Picard that would make me give up my own command three times. In real life somebody like Shelby would have leap-frogged over his stiff Imzadi ass, and he'd deserve it.

TNG people are supposed to be more evolved than that though. What's wrong with him deciding his own goals?

 

[Discofan]

...
TNG people are supposed to be more evolved than that though. What's wrong with him deciding his own goals?

What's wrong is that he doesn't seem to have any.

 

[Mytran]

So, I've been thinking about this whole debacle with Jellico making the crew go to a four shift rotation. To me this makes absolutely no sense, especially in preparation for an oncoming war. He's effectually reducing manning per shift by 25%. I understand that it would appear to be a good idea by having shorter shifts to aid in crew alertness, but on the flip side those same people are going to have to take up the slack for the fact that they're operating at 75% normal ops manning. Realistically, he should've gone from three shifts to two in the short term and he would have a net increase of 150% manning per shift. Of course, we don't really know the intricacies of Starfleet personnelist issues so...

This would only be an issue if there were no surplus staff on board ship. As mentioned upthread, even on a 3 shift rotation you would be cycling between at least 4 shifts of people, otherwise no-one would ever get a day off!

 

[Mojochi]

Overall, Riker isn't in the way on that ship. He's a valued member of the crew, but he IS in that way of other people who could be a valued member of that crew, in that job for a time, & gain the experience & training he so lavishly hordes to himself. Surely the 1st officer role is primarily in existence in 24th century Starfleet as both a check of power on the captain AND a way to hone new captains. While Riker does enjoy the part where he challenges captains, he's not so forthcoming on the part where it's a good job for other people besides him

He is in the service of Starfleet. At some level, their priorities must be of a concern for him. He is outright being told by everyone, including his own conscience, that he ought to move on up. If he is truly a man of service, he'd do that. If he doesn't, it means his intention is to concern himself more with his own priorities. This middle management job suits me more than command. I'm comfortable here, don't want to leave my friends. I'd like to get promoted to captain of the D after Picard leaves, etc...

While we can all identify & sympathize with these motives, they are ultimately self serving, & that is not an optimal serviceman.

 

[Schimpfy]

This would only be an issue if there were no surplus staff on board ship. As mentioned upthread, even on a 3 shift rotation you would be cycling between at least 4 shifts of people, otherwise no-one would ever get a day off!

I believe the meaning of shifts here is a bit misleading. As someone speaking from experience as Sgt_G did previously in the thread it's a bit of a misnomer. I myself have worked odd shifts, especially during deployments, where days off are staggered between groups. However, the shift schedule remained the same every time with minimal exceptions. There were two twelve hour shifts that ran continuously from, say, 0700-1900 and 1900-0700. Sometimes it was 1200-2400 and 0001-1200, depending on location and commander's discretion. This is coming from an Air Force aircraft maintenance environment which isn't to discredit anything previously said. Just trying to make the point that there are variations and we don't know what auspice Starfleet acts upon regarding shifts. Either way, going to less (longer) shifts increases manpower which leads to less time utilized for turnover to an oncoming shift. Going to more (shorter) shifts decrease manpower and wastes more time by creating the need for more shift turnovers.

 

[Mojochi]

The thing is, we don't really have any clue about the specifics of their branch of service, to say what the differences/benefits would be. He knows why he's asking for it, & no one explicitly states that it is a counterproductive suggestion, only that it isn't something they'd find easy to do

 

[Admiral2]

Jellico didn't find a way since they weren't working together at that point. Riker was sitting chilling in his quarters while Jellico wandered around looking for a pilot,

And the reason Riker was chilling in his quarters was that he was relieved of duty for being insubordinate. What is it about that simple fact that you find confusing?

after presumably setting up a new first officer.

Data, actually. Best decision he made the whole damn episode.

That is pretty bad

If you sympathize with Riker and the crew. If you sympathize with the rightful commander of the ship, it was a necessary action taken to get his subordinate officers under control, because the guy who was supposed to be doing that for him wouldn't.

The difference is if he was better with people he could have got Riker on his side there, instead he uses it as an opportunity to vent his list of issues with Riker yet again. They end the conversation disliking each other even more. How he would be able to control the crew in an actual war situation if he can't even do that, is questionable..

I will say it again: a commanding officer you can get along with is a fringe benefit, it is not a job requirement for the commanding officer.

Jellico should not have had to get Riker on his side because a first officer's main job requirement is to give the captain what he wants. He makes sure the crew follows the captain's orders, he makes sure the ship is readied according to the captain's specifications. The first officer is the captain's enforcer. That's his JOB!

He and the captain don't have to get along. They could outright hate each other, and in chain of command terms it wouldn't matter. Why? Because it's uniform code, which was designed to work whether there's an emotional connection or not between the crew members, and as long as he's Captain, Jellico has every right to expect to control his crew that way because human beings of all stripes have had that same expectation fulfilled for fucking centuries!

TNG people are supposed to be more evolved than that though. What's wrong with him deciding his own goals?

Nothing. What's wrong with Shelby pursuing her goals by going through him?

 

[Makarov]

And the reason Riker was chilling in his quarters was that he was relieved of duty for being insubordinate. What is it about that simple fact that you find confusing?

A completely avoidable situation if Jellico had shown an ounce of skill working with people. So no, he didn't find a way to work with the guy.

If you sympathize with Riker and the crew. If you sympathize with the rightful commander of the ship, it was a necessary action taken to get his subordinate officers under control, because the guy who was supposed to be doing that for him wouldn't.

It's strategically a bad move for Jellico regardless of which side is more sympathetic. Waste of time, lower morale, and look bad in front of his own morale officer. Don't you think the best pilot on the ship is worth having in his pocket had they actually gone to war? And not just Riker, a good leader would have channeled the crews feelings about losing Picard into action. He misses a lot of opportunities for it that other captains wouldn't...

Then the counter to this is "But he didn't have time for feelings!" I call bullshit on this, since he should use whatever he can to get the job done and in this case that calls for motivating people. Even Data dealt with insubordination better two times on the show.

Nothing. What's wrong with Shelby pursuing her goals by going through him?

For one thing it's telling that diehard Jellico fans care so much about Riker's insubordination but are also rooting for Shelby deliberately railing against her own superior officer. This strict adherence to chain of command only seems to apply when it's in defense of Jellico

 

[Admiral2]

A completely avoidable situation if Jellico had shown an ounce of skill working with people. So no, he didn't find a way to work with the guy.

He was the Captain. He was under no obligation to "work with" Riker. It was Riker's obligation to turn over a ship readied to Jellico's specifications. They were not equals. Jellico was Enterprise's rightful commander, which means he gets the lion's share of consideration, just like Kirk, just like Picard, just like Sisko, just like Janeway, and just like anyone else throughout history with the word "Captain" in front of his or her name.

It's strategically a bad move for Jellico regardless of which side is more sympathetic. Waste of time, lower morale, and look bad in front of his own morale officer.

Riker was not a "morale officer." A morale officer is a lower-ranked weenie whose job it is pick movies and plan birthday parties. Riker was an Executive Officer, and his job is much more important and required of him whether the Captain "looks bad" to him or not.

Don't you think the best pilot on the ship is worth having in his pocket had they actually gone to war?

Not if the best pilot on the ship is an insubordinate ass.

And not just Riker, a good leader would have channeled the crews feelings about losing Picard into action. He misses a lot of opportunities for it that other captains wouldn't...

You're talking about an empathetic leader, which is neither automatically good or bad, and for the millionth time, not a job requirement for a commanding officer.

Then the counter to this is "But he didn't have time for feelings!" I call bullshit on this, since he should use whatever he can to get the job done and in this case that calls for motivating people. Even Data dealt with insubordination better two times on the show.

Then my counter shall be, "The crew's feelings are not the captain's problem. That's what chiefs and chaplains are for."

For one thing it's telling that diehard Jellico fans care so much about Riker's insubordination but are also rooting for Shelby deliberately railing against her own superior officer. This strict adherence to chain of command only seems to apply when it's in defense of Jellico

Actually, no, it applies both ways, which brings me back to my earlier assertion, that Riker had no problem asserting his authority over Shelby but bristled when Jellico asserted authority over him, which makes him a hypocrite.

 

[Vger23]

This whole thing about "was Riker right or wrong" is kind of ridiculous. It's very simple: Riker was the XO and Jellico was the Captain. Riker's job is to execute the Captain's orders, support in public, raise concerns in private. He did none of that. He almost literally executed none of his job as far as his relation with Jellico was concerned. He was insubordinate in the middle of a looming crisis.

Jellico could be a bigger asshole than anyone in history, but it's his ship and his mission, rightfully assigned in the authority of Starfleet Command and, by extension, the Federation Council. He's not required to be nice, understanding, empathetic, people-friendly, patient, etc. Riker, on the other hand, is required to carry out reasonable orders of a superior officer. Note: A change to the shift structure is a massively reasonable order for a commanding officer to make. Flying into a pulsar is not.

All this is one of the reasons that Riker is my favorite TNG character. He's the most realistic human being character in almost the entire franchise. Yes, he is talented, capable, funny, loyal,...but he's also a very flawed, stagnant, horny, ego-driven, shouty, occasionally insubordinate asshole.

So, while admittedly Riker is my favorite TNG character, he's absolutely in the wrong with regard to how he handles Jellico.

It's not even really a debate. Jellico was fundamentally doing his job and had every right and authority to execute it as he saw fit. Riker was the exact opposite. I'm not in the military or an organization tasked with safeguarding the safety and way of life of an entire civilization. That's said, if I related to my boss the way Riker relates to Jellico, I'd be fired , and rightfully so.