Jelico

[Unicron]

3D Master said:
Wrong. The only difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise, is that the latter is bigger. It's NOTHING like a battleship and a carrier. They're both battle shps.

So the Excelsior class Cairo, which was Jellico's command, is somehow identical to the Galaxy class aside from size? How do you figure that?

Jellico does not need to control his crew, and didn't need to. They were under his control/command by the sheer virtue of him BEING THE CAPTAIN OF THE ENTERPRISE! Whatever he did with Cardassians, also has no impact on the crew.

Ah, so if Jellico's tactic of being "unreasonable" had convinced the Cardassians that the Feds weren't serious about the negotiations and they withdrew, that wouldn't have an impact on the crew?

Sorry, but the crew are not drones who exist to obey the captain's every whim. Did you ever see Crimson Tide? I'm not saying Jellico ever acted inappropriate enough to warrant a mutiny or something that dire, but the crew has the right to refuse to follow an order if it should be unwarranted or potentially illegal. By your logic, nobody should be able to disagree with Bush just cause he's president.

Finally, we've seen Picard himself state that no matter how many doubts and insecurities he has, to the crew he must look like he's absolutely certain. So, according to you, Picard must be just as bad a captain and just as big a jerk as Jellico!

On the contrary, I agree but I also think Picard has the right to change his mind at the last second if his reasons (however right they might seem before) turn out to be wrong, or if new evidence surfaces. The crew will respond to the fact that he ultimately makes the correct choice, versus "staying the course" as Bush might put it.

Sorry, but let's see: Cardassians build up to war in an earlier episode, and now are building a biogenic weapon. Wow! What a shocker! The Cardassians might not be fully upfront. And Jellico's negotiations were all to make a truly lasting peace, and not some quick stop gap the Cardassians would only use to build up further.

Shocker! The Romulans did exactly the same thing in "The Defector." They created false intelligence to force Jarok's defection, so that he could lure the Feds into the Neutral Zone and the Romulans could claim any hostilities were "provoked." Picard was willing to accept the stalemate, but to Jellico it would have seemed that Jarok's suspicions about the Romulan aggression were right: there was no base, but they clearly wanted to attack the Federation. So he might been willing to give battle believing he was protecting his government, even if it started a war.

BULLSHIT! He didn't piss the Cardassians off because he didn't trust them. The same way saying sorry to that one Federation species would get you into a fight, and essentially telling him to go fuck off, would have earned you his respect - different cultures and species react different to the way you do things. You want to get something out of a Klingon, you aren't nice, you yell in his face. Treating the Cardassians the way Jellico treated them, is the same way.

So I guess Picard should have done the same in "The Wounded" instead of treating the Cardassians as equals? Sorry, but I fail to see how not negotiating is the best way to conduct a negotiation.

 

[sbk1234]

For that matter, even Picard had never commanded anything bigger than a Constellation class ship before the Enterprise-D.

 

[CaptainStoner]

I feel that the thread has gotten out of context and out of appropriateness in places, to which I've contributed....I think it's fair enough to say, in RPG terms, that Jellico has around a -1 Charisma modifier, not severe, but definetly noticable, and that -1 shapes his command style to be what it is.
Picard I think is naturally more of a +1 Charisma, with an added bonus in diplomacy situations.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Unicron said:

3D Master said:
Wrong. The only difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise, is that the latter is bigger. It's NOTHING like a battleship and a carrier. They're both battle shps.

So the Excelsior class Cairo, which was Jellico's command, is somehow identical to the Galaxy class aside from size? How do you figure that?

Captain Erika Benteen lead an Excelsior refit into battle against Worf commanding the Defiant and won in Paradise Lost. Or course Worf didn’t want to shoot back, but he still lost. The Excelsior’s were designed to do the same job as the Galaxy’s back when the Federation was a little smaller and the bad guys where equally technically unsophisticated… sans families and obviously carrying less “Soldiers” but they’re both capable of equally interesting tactical missions. Enterprise is the Flag Ship however which carries more weight in Diplomatic Missions.

Actually considering the rigid specifications, readiness and capabilities which Jellico expected from his crew and vessel, I’d say that the Cairo would have more than a good chance at taking Enterprise in even a fair fight, considering Enterprise got powned by a couple ancient Klingon BoP staffed by half a dozen Ferengi, or even the USS Hathaway!! Enterprise being a naturally more powerful ship with inherent abilities, allowed the crew to coast that they were in no way maximizing their potential as the crew of a war ship.

Unicron said:

Jellico does not need to control his crew, and didn't need to. They were under his control/command by the sheer virtue of him BEING THE CAPTAIN OF THE ENTERPRISE! Whatever he did with Cardassians, also has no impact on the crew.

Ah, so if Jellico's tactic of being "unreasonable" had convinced the Cardassians that the Feds weren't serious about the negotiations and they withdrew, that wouldn't have an impact on the crew?

Sorry, but the crew are not drones who exist to obey the captain's every whim. Did you ever see Crimson Tide? I'm not saying Jellico ever acted inappropriate enough to warrant a mutiny or something that dire, but the crew has the right to refuse to follow an order if it should be unwarranted or potentially illegal. By your logic, nobody should be able to disagree with Bush just cause he's president.

Of his inner circle and immediate staff you can damn well expect Bush to demand Loyalty or walking papers from those in his direct midst. Further from power, further from his control… (Don’t you recall how he had the press and audience at his rallies during the election sign loyalties oaths?) Latitude is assumed that the kitchen staff at the white house may disagree with some of his policies. I recall Data asking Worf if he would like to be demoted for insubordination while he was briefly in command of the Enterprise. What the hell episode was that? Gambit?

Jellico was probably doing the math about how much trouble it would have been to just switch the crews of the Cairo and the Enterprise considering how whiney they all were, and I don’t know about you but earthmen rarely ever meet aliens with an IQ over 80, so of course that psychology which wouldn’t work on a 6 year old human was going to fly… If Madred had been the Cardassian sent to talk to Jellico it’s quite obvious that anyone who acts like David Warner is going to see through that entire transparent swagger.

Unicron said:

Finally, we've seen Picard himself state that no matter how many doubts and insecurities he has, to the crew he must look like he's absolutely certain. So, according to you, Picard must be just as bad a captain and just as big a jerk as Jellico!

On the contrary, I agree but I also think Picard has the right to change his mind at the last second if his reasons (however right they might seem before) turn out to be wrong, or if new evidence surfaces. The crew will respond to the fact that he ultimately makes the correct choice, versus "staying the course" as Bush might put it.

No one knows everything.

Unicron said:

Sorry, but let's see: Cardassians build up to war in an earlier episode, and now are building a biogenic weapon. Wow! What a shocker! The Cardassians might not be fully upfront. And Jellico's negotiations were all to make a truly lasting peace, and not some quick stop gap the Cardassians would only use to build up further.

Shocker! The Romulans did exactly the same thing in "The Defector." They created false intelligence to force Jarok's defection, so that he could lure the Feds into the Neutral Zone and the Romulans could claim any hostilities were "provoked." Picard was willing to accept the stalemate, but to Jellico it would have seemed that Jarok's suspicions about the Romulan aggression were right: there was no base, but they clearly wanted to attack the Federation. So he might been willing to give battle believing he was protecting his government, even if it started a war.

BULLSHIT! He didn't piss the Cardassians off because he didn't trust them. The same way saying sorry to that one Federation species would get you into a fight, and essentially telling him to go fuck off, would have earned you his respect - different cultures and species react different to the way you do things. You want to get something out of a Klingon, you aren't nice, you yell in his face. Treating the Cardassians the way Jellico treated them, is the same way.

So I guess Picard should have done the same in "The Wounded" instead of treating the Cardassians as equals? Sorry, but I fail to see how not negotiating is the best way to conduct a negotiation.

Right? You’re not a salesman or in marketing are you? Sometimes it’s good to make your opponent feel superior as if they’re doing you a favour and sometimes it’s important to devalue their sense of worth so they’ll step up and beg you to be heard, and sometimes a million other tricks to make friends and influence people… Christ on a bike, Jellico was the Bad cop and Deanna was the Good cop, you just have not been paying attention if you missed that one, it’s the cornerstone of the worst moments in the last 15 years of in Law and Order. Have you never ever heard of "Good Cop, bad Cop"?

 

[3D Master]

The Old Mixer said:
If Jellico expected Picard to return, why did he get rid of the fish?

I never said anything about expecting him to return - in fact, I said the opposite - he expected Picard not to return. That however, is a very different thing from not caring about whether he returns.

John_Picard said:

3D Master said:
Wrong. The only difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise, is that the latter is bigger. It's NOTHING like a battleship and a carrier. They're both battle ships.

Actually, there is a BIG difference between commanding a carrier and command of a smaller style ship. Carrier Captains are required to have the following experience:
1) Served as a pilot, RIO (Radar-Intercept-Officer), etc
2) Served as the Commanding Officer of a supply replenishment ship (AO, AFS, AOE, etc).

Submarine commanders, as is evident, are ONLY tapped from the submarine community.

I never said there wasn't, I said there was no such difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise. The Enterprise is only bigger - but it's the same type of ship, with the same armaments, the battle function.

Unicron said:

3D Master said:
Wrong. The only difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise, is that the latter is bigger. It's NOTHING like a battleship and a carrier. They're both battle shps.

So the Excelsior class Cairo, which was Jellico's command, is somehow identical to the Galaxy class aside from size? How do you figure that?

Do you see any fighter craft on the Enterprise?

Do you see any different weapons or defensive capabilities on either ship?

Jellico does not need to control his crew, and didn't need to. They were under his control/command by the sheer virtue of him BEING THE CAPTAIN OF THE ENTERPRISE! Whatever he did with Cardassians, also has no impact on the crew.

Ah, so if Jellico's tactic of being "unreasonable" had convinced the Cardassians that the Feds weren't serious about the negotiations and they withdrew, that wouldn't have an impact on the crew?

It didn't, and wouldn't convince the Cardassians that the Feds weren't serious - in fact, it did the opposite. That's because Jellico understands Cardassians. Remember how Cardassians show their women they are interested in them? By fighting with them. This is the same way. Being nice only means they get bolder, you need to show them strength. Being nice would have only caused all the things you are so afraid of happening from Jellico's negotiating tactics.

Plus, the Cardassians were never serious to begin with, they were about to invade the Federation!

Sorry, but the crew are not drones who exist to obey the captain's every whim. Did you ever see Crimson Tide? I'm not saying Jellico ever acted inappropriate enough to warrant a mutiny or something that dire, but the crew has the right to refuse to follow an order if it should be unwarranted or potentially illegal. By your logic, nobody should be able to disagree with Bush just cause he's president.

:sighs:

Of course, but that doesn't have anything to do with anything in the show. And I never said anything about not disagreeing - you can disagree all you want, but as long as the orders aren't unjust, unethical or illegal, you are to follow them anyway.

Finally, we've seen Picard himself state that no matter how many doubts and insecurities he has, to the crew he must look like he's absolutely certain. So, according to you, Picard must be just as bad a captain and just as big a jerk as Jellico!

On the contrary, I agree but I also think Picard has the right to change his mind at the last second if his reasons (however right they might seem before) turn out to be wrong, or if new evidence surfaces. The crew will respond to the fact that he ultimately makes the correct choice, versus "staying the course" as Bush might put it.

Sure, so can Jellico. Has however NOTHING to do with the way Jellico commanded his ship. And what's it with you turning TNG episodes into a Bush fest?

Sorry, but let's see: Cardassians build up to war in an earlier episode, and now are building a biogenic weapon. Wow! What a shocker! The Cardassians might not be fully upfront. And Jellico's negotiations were all to make a truly lasting peace, and not some quick stop gap the Cardassians would only use to build up further.

Shocker! The Romulans did exactly the same thing in "The Defector." They created false intelligence to force Jarok's defection, so that he could lure the Feds into the Neutral Zone and the Romulans could claim any hostilities were "provoked." Picard was willing to accept the stalemate, but to Jellico it would have seemed that Jarok's suspicions about the Romulan aggression were right: there was no base, but they clearly wanted to attack the Federation. So he might been willing to give battle believing he was protecting his government, even if it started a war.

Picard went into the Neutral Zone, to find out, didn't he? Jellico is doing no different.

BULLSHIT! He didn't piss the Cardassians off because he didn't trust them. The same way saying sorry to that one Federation species would get you into a fight, and essentially telling him to go fuck off, would have earned you his respect - different cultures and species react different to the way you do things. You want to get something out of a Klingon, you aren't nice, you yell in his face. Treating the Cardassians the way Jellico treated them, is the same way.

So I guess Picard should have done the same in "The Wounded" instead of treating the Cardassians as equals? Sorry, but I fail to see how not negotiating is the best way to conduct a negotiation.

You're an idiot. What happened in "The Wounded" had nothing to do with anything. The Federation has handled the Cardassians wrong from day one, the same way they treated the Klingons wrong - it seems they it takes ten times making a mistake before they learn from them. The Wounded and all the Cardassians continuing to try and fight the Federation, are exactly because the Federation never showed them any resolve. They always only just tossed the Cardassians back out of Federation space, and then did nothing more. To the Cardassians that was seen as very simple: the Federation is weak, next time we can take 'em. The Federation should have crushed the invading force with an overwhelming one of their own, than further invade the Cardassians a couple of lightyears, destroying any military force in the area, and then setting it up as a neutral zone, and starting "negotiations", more like stating terms. You prove you can better yourselves in the next 20 years you can have the neutral zone back, now on to the rest - and if you disagree, well, than we continue until every single last one of your military ships are destroyed, and we'll have to replace your government.

CaptainStoner said:
I feel that the thread has gotten out of context and out of appropriateness in places, to which I've contributed....I think it's fair enough to say, in RPG terms, that Jellico has around a -1 Charisma modifier, not severe, but definetly noticable, and that -1 shapes his command style to be what it is.

Not really. To me he is +1 charisma and that shapes his command style +1. It's the Enterprise crew that was at fault here, not Jellico. They wanted carbon-copy of Picard, and refused to adapt with the new and different captain.

 

[Timo]

Uh, technically speaking, Nelson's Victory and USS Iowa from WWII were the exact same, only the latter one was bigger - it was still the same type of ship, with the same armaments.

For a slightly more realistic example, let's take British ironclads from 1860 and 1890. The difference between Jellico's old and new ships seems just about that drastic. His old point emitter guns would be muzzle-loading smoothbores; the new ones are strips comparable to breech-loading rifles. The old and new steam engines (simple trunk type versus compound) could be as different as the old and new warp ones. The old wrought-iron armor versus the new steel would mirror the developments in starship shielding.

The interesting point about this is that a Royal Navy captain of the 1890s would be expected to be capable of commanding either type of ship (the 1860s types were still in stock thirty years later) in the threat environment of his day. This wasn't always smart policy: captains unfamiliar with their rides made fatal misjudgements and lost their ships in collisions and moderate weather topple-overs. Had the RN gone to war at the time, it would probably have sank all on its own, no enemy needed.

However, there were competent captains back then who knew several ship types in and out (no mean feat in a fleet that thought that "standardization" was a vile French word). Jellico could well have been trained in the operation of modern Galaxy class vessels or their close sisters of Nebula or similar classes. Moreover, it would suffice for him to know just the crucial practical consequences of the multiple technological differences - say, that his new ship can move two warp factors faster than the old one, but turns 360 degrees in twice the time. Tactics for using the two dissimilar types might remain the same, or then Jellico might have mastered two sets of tactics.

Jellico might be accused of micromanaging, but we never quite saw him trying to operate equipment alien to him. In that, he was much more realistic than the supposedly retired Kirk in ST:GEN, and much less annoying than Scotty in "Relics"...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[3D Master]

Timo said:
Uh, technically speaking, Nelson's Victory and USS Iowa from WWII were the exact same, only the latter one was bigger - it was still the same type of ship, with the same armaments.

No, they aren't.

For a slightly more realistic example, let's take British ironclads from 1860 and 1890. The difference between Jellico's old and new ships seems just about that drastic. His old point emitter guns would be muzzle-loading smoothbores; the new ones are strips comparable to breech-loading rifles. The old and new steam engines (simple trunk type versus compound) could be as different as the old and new warp ones. The old wrought-iron armor versus the new steel would mirror the developments in starship shielding.

:sighs: The excelsior also has phaser strips. There's such a thing as upgrading. Of course, how the ship functions doesn't really have anything to do with Jellico's command decisions that all of you has a problem with - that was all interpersonal and not hardware related - so even IF you analogy was correct, you'd still be wrong.

The interesting point about this is that a Royal Navy captain of the 1890s would be expected to be capable of commanding either type of ship (the 1860s types were still in stock thirty years later) in the threat environment of his day. This wasn't always smart policy: captains unfamiliar with their rides made fatal misjudgements and lost their ships in collisions and moderate weather topple-overs. Had the RN gone to war at the time, it would probably have sank all on its own, no enemy needed.

So Picard should never have accepted his crew to obey his orders, eh? Seeing as his ship before the Enterprise was even older and less sophisticated than the Excelsior-class of Jellico.

Oh, wait... that's right... command-style and expecting orders to be followed has nothing to do with hardware, and it shows nothing about being a prick or being incompetent.

However, there were competent captains back then who knew several ship types in and out (no mean feat in a fleet that thought that "standardization" was a vile French word). Jellico could well have been trained in the operation of modern Galaxy class vessels or their close sisters of Nebula or similar classes. Moreover, it would suffice for him to know just the crucial practical consequences of the multiple technological differences - say, that his new ship can move two warp factors faster than the old one, but turns 360 degrees in twice the time. Tactics for using the two dissimilar types might remain the same, or then Jellico might have mastered two sets of tactics.

Which all doesn't matter.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Even if the reassignment was understood to be long-term, getting rid of the fish the first time he walked into the Ready Room was cold. Freakin' Gul Dukat had the courtesy to hold onto Sisko's baseball!

 

[Timo]

What's it with counterfactuality today? No, the Cairo did not have phaser strips, period.

Nor is there any indication that she would have been upgraded to be the match of 2360s top-notch technology in any other respect, but that's something we can argue about. The nature of her guns is not.

Command-style and expecting orders to be followed has nothing to do with hardware, and it shows nothing about being a prick or being incompetent.

Seconded that - insofar as we acknowledge that a skipper of a torpedo boat is a poor choice for commanding a missile cruiser and vice versa, because their tactical instincts are grossly contradictory.

However, Picard would be a highly suspect commander of the E-D if he had not been specifically trained in the functionings of that type of vessel. There would be every chance of him wrecking the ship and killing thousands in that case. However, in "Encounter at Farpoint" already, we learn to have full confidence in his knowledge of the E-D's capabilities, as he presses her warp propulsion to its true (rather than regulation-assumed) limits but not beyond.

Do we have a similar revelatory moment about Jellico's abilities? Not really, dramatically speaking. But he does demonstrate his confidence in the ship's ability to fight fifteen Cardassian vessels, and also seems to know how this would happen; a feat quite comparable to the "EaF" warp chase in tactical terms, if not even more impressive. The dramatic punch is lacking simply because Jellico only involves himself in a simulation, not the real thing. We might appreciate him a lot more if he heroically fought those fifteen ships on screen, no matter how illogical that would be when the aim of the mission was securing peace.

Even if the reassignment was understood to be long-term, getting rid of the fish the first time he walked into the Ready Room was cold.

I wonder what Picard would have gotten rid of, had the E-D not been virgin territory when he took command...

But yes, this was one of the two cases where the writers went full throttle for anti-sympathy. Elsewhere we might cheer for Jellico or Riker alternatively, but here he is written to be an all-out villain; and again at his departure ceremony, we're left no choice but accept that the crew of the ship feels no sympathy or appreciation for him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spider]

3D Master said:
You're an idiot.

Aw for Christ's sakes folks, calm down, will ya?

 

[John Picard]

3D Master said:

John_Picard said:

3D Master said:
Wrong. The only difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise, is that the latter is bigger. It's NOTHING like a battleship and a carrier. They're both battle ships.

Actually, there is a BIG difference between commanding a carrier and command of a smaller style ship. Carrier Captains are required to have the following experience:
1) Served as a pilot, RIO (Radar-Intercept-Officer), etc
2) Served as the Commanding Officer of a supply replenishment ship (AO, AFS, AOE, etc).

Submarine commanders, as is evident, are ONLY tapped from the submarine community.

I never said there wasn't, I said there was no such difference between Jellico's old ship and the Enterprise. The Enterprise is only bigger - but it's the same type of ship, with the same armaments, the battle function.

Yes, you did. You tried to compare apples to oranges, but feel free to backpedal.

 

[AJBryant]

The Old Mixer said:
Freakin' Gul Dukat had the courtesy to hold onto Sisko's baseball!

Hardly courtesy.

If anything, he would have considered it a victory trophy -- Sisko's prized possession was now HIS and decorating HIS office.

Tony

 

[nx1701g]

^ Yep and remember Dukat felt that he had already won the war. Weyoun kept reminding him that the war was far from over, but he felt that the Federation had no chance against him.

The Baseball - to him - was a statement that he'd bested his enemy and was reclaiming what he'd lost.

 

[The Old Mixer]

No, leaving the baseball behind signified that Sisko intended to reclaim the station--Dukat said that outright when he discovered it. He held onto it out of respect for his adversary.

 

[nx1701g]

^ Yeah he did say that, but in the Occupation arc Dukat clearly says several times that the war is already over and the Dominion has won. It's Weyoun that sets him straight several times. I just watched the episodes yesterday.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^None of which establishes that Dukat wasn't keeping the baseball out of respect for Sisko. Jelico, by contrast, probably used Picard's Shakespeare tome as toilet paper.

 

[Timo]

Dukat just doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would respect his adversaries, ever.

And Jellico reminded Picard to take his Shakespeare collection with him. (He kept Picard's starship statue, though.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MikeH92467]

OK...let's look at it from the outside in.

What was Jellico's Job?

Keep war from breaking out with the Cardassians. Mission accomplished. He managed to accomplish that without major bloodshed. He also had the balls to face down the Cardassians to rescue Picard's Away Team, even though he would have never been reprimanded or chastised if he had quit and gone home when the Cardassians backed off. Instead he hung in and made the carefully considered gamble of trying to get his comrades back.

From that standpoint, the guy deserves a commendation and/or promotion. Bruised feelings are not something to worry about when the stakes are so high.

Now from the inside looking out, Jellico actually got along quite well with Geordi once he realized Geordi was busting his ass to get with the program and he didn't take it personally when Crusher was less than enthusiastic about setting up for combat casualties.

The real problem was Riker, and really I think the writers fell down on the job. Maybe the biggest mistake was when Riker went crying to Picard. If Picard had given him a hard, swift kick in the ass and spelled out in no uncertain terms that he expected Riker to show the same loyalty to Jellico that Riker had to him and that if he got wind of anything less Riker's ass would be grass if he survived, it might have built a more realistic framework for the story arc.

I think there could have been a certain amount of tension between Riker and Jellico, but those could have been better portrayed as differences of opinions between professionals expressed behind closed doors, not in front of the crew. (Remember how Data chewed Worf's ass for showing him up in front of the bridge crew?) That tension certainly could have been portrayed without Riker being relieved.

One thing I did like was when Jellico let his hair down with Geordi and showed a more human side. It also spoke well for him that he took Geordi's advice and used Riker for the Shuttle craft mission. Another sign of professionalism on his part.

See where I'm going here? I think what we had was a good, not great, episode which doesn't hold up well over the long haul because of some weaknesses in the relationship between two of the lead characters.

 

[DanCPA]

I don't have a problem with any part of the episode. It makes sense that Riker would lose his professional detachment from the situation given that Picard had become family to him at that point.

It also makes sense that Captain Jellico wouldn't give a damn. He is obviously an experienced commander and could care less what issues, if any Riker has about Picard. Obviously he cares about Picard, as a fellow officer, nothing more. Jellico is the Captain of the Enterprise, end of story. His job is to be the official resolution to the situation, to represent Starfleet.

He made it perfectly clear that he wanted the Enterprise ready for war... He knew that the flagship of the Federation might have to take on a squadron of Galor-class warships. And he knew that he had to make sure that the modifications were ready. No doubt, he had those modifications done, La Forge and Data never question the quality of his decisions, merely their dislike of how he is forcing the issue with them. Well, as Captain, he doesn't have to force the issue, he merely has to give the orders and that is the end of the conversation.

And we did see the more human side of Jellico. Personally, I would have liked to have seen Jellico remain in command of the Enterprise for 3 or 4 episodes

 

[Guy Gardener]

Jellico in charge and in having it off with Data. You can't tell me that wasn't a Dom Sub relationship we saw in evidence with these two. The old man even bought his new bitch a new wardrobe.