Jedi nerfed in TCW?

[Deimos Anomaly]

Some scenes it seems that way to me. It actually seems a bit schizophrenic... Sometimes a Jedi takes out loads of enemies, other times they get rendered helpless essentially by being tied up. Which seems daft, since they can still use the force.

I mean when you look at Jedi in the movies... you get the impression that Jedi should go through "normal" foes like a freaking force of nature. But quite often that doesn't seem the case in TCW.

Sometimes they just seem to not use their power when it would be an obvious time to do so. It's like they forget they have the force. I've been noticing this pattern for a while, but one recent episode I watched was particularly silly I thought... (I am in the middle of Season 4, catching up, I never watched TCW before so I've been working through it after downloading all the previous eps.) It was an episode where they go after these slavers who have captured a bunch of colonists and sold them into slavery.

Anyway there is a set up similar to the one on Jabba's sail barge at the Sarlaac. There are three Jedi of various calibers and an ARC Trooper commander, and none of the bad guys know who they are. One of the Jedi is as close to the evil queen as Leia was to Jabba... but with the advantage of being a Jedi. R2D2 fires out lightsabers to them and they go on the attack. They should rack up a mega body count and scythe their way out of there and rescue the colonists. Instead they get captured in short order and made slaves themselves. Compare to ROTJ where only Luke was a Jedi, and Jabba had Boba Fett among others on his side (and Han was blind!) but Luke still went thru them like a knife.

Then Anakin force chokes the queen but sorta gives up... He could have killed her easily but he just quits.

And Ahsoka is locked in a cage hanging over a cliff, and a slaver comes to leer at her and she sort of force-shoves him and he almost falls off the edge, after which the enraged slaver activiates her torture collar... Like Anakin and the queen, she could have easily killed the slaver, hurled him to his death, but she just didn't. And the result of letting him live was... extremely painful.

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan is sent to this slave-run metal foundry and forced to shovel coal into furnaces. That's it. And these slavers come along and beat slaves in front of him and torture him and the other slaves with impunity. He could kill them easily! He's a jedi master! He faced down Dooku on Geonosis, he defeated Darth Maul on Naboo... he could choke them, take their weapons off them, hurl any of the many many dangerous objects at them, pick them up and chuck them into the blast furnace etc. but he just doesn't.

It annoys me a bit.

Rant over.

 

[Stephen!]

They should rack up a mega body count and scythe their way out of there and rescue the colonists.

That's the sort of thing Anakin did in episode 2. Mass murder isn't really the way of the Jedi.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

That's how fiction works: characters face conflict in an entertaining way. Worldbuilding is there to add some flavor, but if it gets in the way of telling the story it's quickly forgotten about. Among genre fiction fans, for some reason, some people think that worldbuilding should trump story, but that simply doesn't work.

 

[USS Firefly]

And you have general grievous who you only have to use the force to stop/ kill him, but nobody think's of that and he also kills Jedi

 

[Icemizer]

Judge me by my body count do you? And well you should not.

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

I don't mean to suggest that a non-Jedi should never be able to kill a Jedi. (Qui-Gon said as much when kid Anakin thought that Jedi were invincible). But it should require being a lot more creative and shouldn't be anywhere near as easy as it is half the time in TCW. As I said above, it almost seems like they forget they have Jedi powers.

 

[Sketcher]

That's the one thing that I enjoyed about the OT. It took massive amounts of concentration to do things like lift a ship out of a swamp or get flashes of the future. The limitations made them seem more like highly skilled warriors rather than superheroes. And you felt more for the characters when Luke was getting beaten by force-flung crates vs when Obi-Wan dropped ten stories and got up without a scratch.

 

[Deimos Anomaly]

Another example I remember from one of the last few eps I watched: The rogue four-armed Jedi who kills loads of clones once he is unmasked, but as soon as he's been stunned, when he wakes up again with shackles on, he is suddenly helpless before Rex and his men. He could choke them all, or hurl them headfirst into the wall at 100mph, but he seems just suddenly helpless. Has he, too, forgotten his powers or what...

 

[Caliburn24]

Jedi having whatever powers(and forgetting powers) the plot demands is a problem with the entire franchise, but especially with TCW, mostly because we see more Jedi combat, a lot more. One week Jedi will be slicing and dicing through an endless stream of enemies, the next week they seem weak as a kitten.

Another problem I have with TCW, is that the Seperatists don't seem to care about creating anti-Jedi weapons. They have the shielded battle droids, and the sonic weapons. But the former is only used to up tension, then easily defeated. And the latter is almost never used because Jedi can't block it, which makes it less cool.

I would have loved if more specific stuff was being fielded by the Seperatists to counter Jedi. Zahn's Ysalamiri creatures would have been amazing to see onscreen, and possibly help to rein in Jedi-power creep, with an easily understood visual element.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Star Wars suffers from a few continuity issues where Jedi ability is concerned. Before this is pointed out, it must be remembered that this occurs in situations where the Jedi would be pressed to use his or her ability (IOW, they are not holding back for any reason, etc.).

In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan and Yoda cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties. Even the ultimately ill-fated padawan who attacked the clones fared better than Jedi with decades of training / experience.

Similarly, Luke destroyed Jabba's army of henchmen with little help in Return of the Jedi.

However, when Anakin and the clones show up at the temple, the Jedi are overwhelmed like children. I'm not buying any "but Kenobi, Yoda and Luke are among the most powerful Jedi" stuff, as we already have the example of the padawan Bail observed holding his own better than the more experienced Jedi.

It appears Jedi are big time ass-kickers when necessary, otherwise, they roll over and die with the ease of the old, green plastic soldier toys.

 

[DarthTom]

Jedi having whatever powers(and forgetting powers) the plot demands is a problem with the entire franchise, but especially with TCW, mostly because we see more Jedi combat, a lot more. One week Jedi will be slicing and dicing through an endless stream of enemies, the next week they seem weak as a kitten.

Agreed, but a lot of sci-fi/fantasy suffers from this. How many times for example did we see in Star Trek the magical engineering solution of the week to solve a plot problem only to be forgotten about as a possible solution to a like problem 3 episodes later?

 

[Caliburn24]

Agreed, but a lot of sci-fi/fantasy suffers from this. How many times for example did we see in Star Trek the magical engineering solution of the week to solve a plot problem only to be forgotten about as a possible solution to a like problem 3 episodes later?

It isn't just sci-fi/fantasy, all genres suffer from this to some extent. TV/movies is the worst medium for it because everything is sacrificed to the all consuming "pacing" god. Without exposition, without an understanding of the intricacies of a conflict, whether it is a universe wide war, or a single hand-to-hand melee it is all just flashy eye-candy.

My Dad for example has no appreciation of MMA, it is just two guys rolling around on the ground hugging each other to him. Where as someone like myself, who has some experience with mixed martial arts, gets a lot more out of it because I can recognize and understand what is going on.

But alas, asking for more exposition in any entertainment medium seems like a losing fight in an age of shortening attention spans.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

That's the one thing that I enjoyed about the OT. It took massive amounts of concentration to do things like lift a ship out of a swamp or get flashes of the future. The limitations made them seem more like highly skilled warriors rather than superheroes. And you felt more for the characters when Luke was getting beaten by force-flung crates vs when Obi-Wan dropped ten stories and got up without a scratch.

Then again, I got the impression from Yoda that the limits on the use of force were caused by self-doubt. A well-trained Jedi wouldn't have these limits.

 

[Stephen!]

That's the one thing that I enjoyed about the OT. It took massive amounts of concentration to do things like lift a ship out of a swamp or get flashes of the future. The limitations made them seem more like highly skilled warriors rather than superheroes. And you felt more for the characters when Luke was getting beaten by force-flung crates vs when Obi-Wan dropped ten stories and got up without a scratch.

Although it could just be that Yoda was really old by that point and Luke was still a novice.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Agreed, but a lot of sci-fi/fantasy suffers from this. How many times for example did we see in Star Trek the magical engineering solution of the week to solve a plot problem only to be forgotten about as a possible solution to a like problem 3 episodes later?

The difference here is that a machine--engines--are easily subject to breakdowns, repairs no longer working, updates going through paces before functioning properly. Jedi are not machines--their power is as much a part of their makeup as their organs, so the use of this power by trained individuals should not suffer from highs and lows, forgotten skills, etc.

There are so many huge differences between specific Jedi skill they all possess, that it renders the characters as flimsy to support weak writing. One of the most glaring examples is Jedi speed used early in The Phantom Menace, but when a character would need it most...nothing. All we have are fan excuses of Kenobi being tired after the fall/leap, which was never implied on screen.

Everyone knows Qui-Gon had to be separated in order for Maul to kill him (well, that was what Lucas had us believe)....but the same result could have been accomplished with Kenobi in the mix. Numbers did not stop Sidious from killing Jedi in his office.

 

[Set Harth]

In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan and Yoda cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties. Even the ultimately ill-fated padawan who attacked the clones fared better than Jedi with decades of training / experience.

But the ultimately ill-fated padawan was ultimately ill-fated, only killing a few clones in the end. How do you know that the Jedi with decades of training/experience generally fared any worse? We didn't get to see most of the combat in the temple, which was attacked by thousands of troops according to the film. It's a question of overwhelming numbers. And outside the temple, we did happen to see several Jedi, one with decades of training/experience, another with centuries of training/experience, quote, "cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties". So the evidence you need to show Zett Jukassa doing better than Jedi Masters just isn't there, while we do see specific Jedi Masters doing better than Zett Jukassa.

All we have are fan excuses of Kenobi being tired after the fall/leap, which was never implied on screen.

We also have a fanmade Youtube clip expressing the point that if Obi-Wan had used Force Speed in that instance he could easily have gone right into the pit.

 

[Gaith]

And even across that energy field, couldn't Obi-Wan have messed with Maul? Given him a Force wedgie or something? Or even a push into the pit? Or maybe slashed at the walls, thus possibly disabling the field? Slashing at the walls is a good trick...

As for TCW, I seem to remember a S2 "Die Hard in the Senate Building" finale, in which a main source of tension is Anakin being shot at, yet having no weapon to defend himself with. Not explained is why he doesn't Force-accio one of the baddies' guns.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just the one wondering why an international coalition of wizards, backed up by throngs of Brits, don't storm the Ministry of Magic the moment Voldy openly takes over.

 

[DarthTom]

The difference here is that a machine--engines--are easily subject to breakdowns, repairs no longer working, updates going through paces before functioning properly. Jedi are not machines--their power is as much a part of their makeup as their organs, so the use of this power by trained individuals should not suffer from highs and lows, forgotten skills, etc.

I understand what your saying but for example in Star Trek how could they forget they have transporter arm bands as a way to exit an emergency situation in one episode but 2 later not bring them?

I could provide you many other examples in Trek where an engineering plot device is used only forgotten about. In Wars Jedi strength is no different.

 

[Set Harth]

I seem to remember a S2 "Die Hard in the Senate Building" finale, in which a main source of tension is Anakin being shot at, yet having no weapon to defend himself with.

Should have just used his hand, like in TESB.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

How do you know that the Jedi with decades of training/experience generally fared any worse?

I know based on the filmed evidence: Mundi barely deflected a few bolts before falling. Secura tured around, acted clueless (as if waiting for a cue to fall...) and died without lifting a finger. Zett-- a mere child--presented the greater, more effective response than two Jedi with decades of training over the boy. Not consistent at all.

We didn't get to see most of the combat in the temple, which was attacked by thousands of troops according to the film. It's a question of overwhelming numbers. And outside the temple, we did happen to see several Jedi, one with decades of training/experience, another with centuries of training/experience, quote, "cut down a large company of clones like a hot knife through butter with no difficulties".

Again, a lack of consistency: adult Jedi are assumed to have reached the end of their training--a certain level of basic proficiency in using the Force, so there's no excuse for the clearly adult temple Jedi to fall like mannequins, while other adult Jedi...and a padawan had better results, despite the child eventually falling.

All we have are fan excuses of Kenobi being tired after the fall/leap, which was never implied on screen.

We also have a fanmade Youtube clip expressing the point that if Obi-Wan had used Force Speed in that instance he could easily have gone right into the pit.

This is Star Wars, not a Three Stooges short. Jedi are displayed as having precise control over their physical actions, so the thought of Kenobi not being able to stop himself before reaching the pit is just silly. The failure to use Jedi speed was the result of a bad plot device that only added more fuel to the charges of inconsistency.