Janeway's worst decisions?

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Gardner, that's really ridiculous, even for one of your random tangent arguments.

These individuals are forced into, essentially, slave labor. I doubt very many go into to it willingly. Very few heroin users don't go into that willingly.

On top of that, once removed from the collective, they are thankful to regain their individuality (unless Lore takes over command).

 

[kimc]

Killing Tuvix to restore Neelix and Tuvok. Certainly a unique moral decision, only Janeway doesn't act very conflicted when she shoves the Doctor and Ensign Kim aside so that SHE can push the button! Even worse is Kes's despicable display of blackmail by turning on the waterworks. Not to mention the way the crew so quickly turns on Tuvix after allowing him to interact with them for several weeks. We don't even get to hear what Neelix or Tuvok feels about what's been done. The episode ends right then and there!

It was the right decision. The whiny guy had to go. Tuvok and Neelix are way cooler.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Oh gawd, let's not start that up again.

 

[DarthTom]

I think every decision Janeway made was consistent with Trek canon and in real life how commanders may face stress [e.g. the Equinox incident] with the exception of when she isolated herself in her quarters.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Gardner, that's really ridiculous, even for one of your random tangent arguments.

These individuals are forced into, essentially, slave labor. I doubt very many go into to it willingly. Very few heroin users don't go into that willingly.

On top of that, once removed from the collective, they are thankful to regain their individuality (unless Lore takes over command).

First, yes I was being ridiculous. However! I was being ridiculous for a reason. Hugh didn't mind being a Borg, he didn't think even that Locutus was fussed with is brief stint at being Borg, but since he didn't have any "original" personality trying to break free it's possible that Hugh was a baby when he was assimilated. Seven of Nine on the other hand was liberated from the collective twice (Scorpion obviously and that 6th season show where she slaved four of them together into a lifeboat minicollective to weather the silence till they got home.) and both times fought tooth and nail to return to it... And then there's Riley's lot that didn't want to return to the real Borg, but because there was so much about being Borg that was aces, they made their own little closed collective with hopefully a more benign ruling agenda. The orgy (The healing link was still on when he and Riley were getting it on.) Chuckles experienced on that planet was such great sex it's no wonder he wound up dating one in the end (Ad hoc? Reverse it.).

The heroin reference was I thought a clear expression that it is dangerous to get between an addict and their drug, because an addict will rationalize and justify extraneously to turn black into white and down (Like I was doing, why I was doing what I was doing.) into custard in-so as long as to say anything to remove you the hell out of the way from being inbetween them and their drug before they have to reach for a broken bottle and cut you (I have read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas many times.). Don't you consider the bliss offered by membership in the collective to be a very addictive drug? One feels good while they're on it but later they feel empty/dead/less when they're off it? If so? Why bother being off it, I mean being "nonassimlated"?

(Though only just now considered the crackwhore epidemic of proxy slavery rampant in most of the developed world (Alien Nation?), but generally heroin is a recreational drug for fucking idiots.)

Apart from the whole slavery thing, harvesting... What happened to Lindsay Ballard isn't so different? She decided being Human was naff after the aliens had fiddled with her brain chemistry, and no amount of making out with Kim was going to convince her otherwise. But if say the Borg were a clone race (Which is their 29th century destiny!) more so than conquerors assimilating world after world would they be tolerable? Even though it is at their core of their being is to prothlesize?

So what's so bad about being Borg other then being made Borg and making more Borg?

It can't be the hive mind aspect since the Changelings are tolerated by the Federation to a point, but then they chose to think as many or as one, able to remove themselves from the link whensoever they chose.

Much closer to home, the Bynars (TNG:1001001001... BAH!) are tolerated by the Federation also, and seemingly the only difference to the Borg is that the Bynars don't recruit. However it's not like they give their newborn children any choice when they begin splicing them with hardware?

How enslaved are members of the collective? Sure the meat is used for drones, but the intellect: digitized souls of every new warm body is removed from their meat and placed into a chorus of unified thinking afterwhich one would hope that the collective will is steered by the majority, in so that the borg act as they do because they want to. they're bastards because 51 percent of them want to be bastards but if at some point 51 percent of them think that it's stupid to be Borg then maybe their society will unravel and die? Every pique and strut of the Borg is completely democratic which if you think about it is very American.

 

[Caligula]

why not then go all out and zap yourself back to the moment when you decided to destroy the Caretaker's Array?

Because that would condemn Annika Hansen, Icheb, Mezoti, Rebi, Azan and the all important Borg baby to life/death as BORG.

That's true, but only Admiral Janeway from that one possible future timeline would have to know all of that. CAPTAIN Janeway from Season 1 wouldn't have the slightest clue who any of those people are. I'm sure she wouldn't have that much trouble making a decision of that kind. However, because Admiral Janeway chose the point in time that she did, she still condemns all those who died (or were assimilated by the Borg) during Voyager's seven years in the Delta Quadrant to the same deaths they suffered. She chose only to save a handful of them, when she had the power/technology to save all of them.

 

[exodus]

The Hirogen weren't going to leave without the holodeck technology. They would have brought in more hunters and probably retaken the ship if she had refused to give it to them. What the Hirogen did with it afterwards was their own fault.

Janeway did regret her decision. In "Flesh and Blood," she agonized over it, saying that all of this was her fault. This is why she didn't punish the EMH for his duplicity. Janeway says to the EMH, "Maybe . . . you've simply become as fallible as those of us who are made of flesh and blood. I'm just as responsible for allowing you to expand your programming as I am for giving technology to the Hirogen. How can I punish you for being who you are?" IOW, I think Janeway concedes here that she is ultimately responsible for all that happened.

Exactly.

 

[exodus]

Killing Tuvix to restore Neelix and Tuvok. Certainly a unique moral decision, only Janeway doesn't act very conflicted when she shoves the Doctor and Ensign Kim aside so that SHE can push the button!

That's right because she shouldn't.
This is part of what it means to be a military captain & leader. She took full responsabilty into her own hands, so pass or fail, the full weight of her actions falls on her & her alone.
What Janeway did is just an extension of the same test Troi had to take to earn her command position, which was to send Geordi to his death.. Sisko explained it in even greater detail in "Rules of Engagement". Being in a command position means you have to understand that you have to send officiers to their death for the greater good and accepting death yourself even without a fight. Tuvok being chief of security also knows this very well because he'd be in the same position every time he sends a security officer into any situation. This is an oath all these Starfleet officers took. So he'd have no issues in Janeways choice.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Hirogen weren't going to leave without the holodeck technology. They would have brought in more hunters and probably retaken the ship if she had refused to give it to them. What the Hirogen did with it afterwards was their own fault.

Janeway did regret her decision. In "Flesh and Blood," she agonized over it, saying that all of this was her fault. This is why she didn't punish the EMH for his duplicity. Janeway says to the EMH, "Maybe . . . you've simply become as fallible as those of us who are made of flesh and blood. I'm just as responsible for allowing you to expand your programming as I am for giving technology to the Hirogen. How can I punish you for being who you are?" IOW, I think Janeway concedes here that she is ultimately responsible for all that happened.

Exactly.

So how many times is she going to let him betray the crew?

I thought the events of renaissance man was enough to see the bugger decompiled. Fighting the crew to rescue the captain, because that's just one step beyond/above blowing himself up to distract the captains kidnappers.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

but only Admiral Janeway from that one possible future timeline would have to know all of that.

Not true, not true AT ALL.

I would know it.

You would know it.

Admiral Hawthorne, AMG, Exodus would know it.

Even Guy would know it in his heroin induced haze.

Isn't the fact that YOU know Joe Cary died in the 5 weeks before the Admiral returned, the reason you are so pissed?

Almost sounds like the crowd scene from JC Superstar, "He saved others, LET HIM save HIMSELF!"

She saved 22 lives, WHY NOT 23? 33?

Had she gone back to Caretaker, and sent Voyager home with the Array, SURELY someone would than have stood up in their living room and asked... "But, but what about Lt Stadi, Lt Commander Cavit, and the nameless Chief Engineer, Doctor, Vulcan Nurse who all died when pulled into the Delta Quadrant? Why not save them too?

Perhaps this is the real lesson about time travel eps... since you can never make "everything" alright, don't even bother.

But lets talk about "that" season 7 Captain Janeway who doesn't know the full future.

The one who was offered a 1st class ticket home, but instead exchanged it for 3rd class steerage and the chance to kill the BORG.

The BORG, who are alive and kicking and will be kicking her ship & crew for much of Voyager's remaining 16 years in the DQ.

The BORG, who are undoubtably not contenting themselves with attacking Voyager, but are likely still assimilating new planets and races and probably attacking the Federation during the next 16 years.

The season 7 BORG, who could NOT handle the season 23 Admiral Janeway's futuristic weaponery and who got their collective butts kicked by that "intrepid" ship and her crew and her Janeways.

How many lives did Voyager save that day?

Yes.

Joe still died.

Who knows.

Like the nameless Ensign on the bridge in "Scientific Method" that finally caused Janeway to crack and take over the helm... perhaps it was Joe's death. A death she COULD NOT change, that pushed Janeway over the edge such that she would no longer accept anymore deaths.

Who knows?

 

[TedShatner10]

Janeway gave the Hirogen holodeck technology because they were pretty much holding her crew at gunpoint, half the ship was already demolished and people had died, and at the time it was the best way out of the situation.

Janeway forged a temporary alliance with the Borg because the Borg were being beaten about by Species 8472, a very powerful faction that also threatened the rest of the galaxy. They had to be stopped. No ifs no buts.

Tuvix was demerged back into Tuvok and Neelix, to save the latter two from virtual death, because Tuvix was a pure accident that could be fixed and keeping him around left two other people dead.

They're bad decisions on principle, but only taken into isolation and ignoring the worse alternatives.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway gave the Hirogen holodeck technology because they were pretty much holding her crew at gunpoint, half the ship was already demolished and people had died, and at the time it was the best way out of the situation.

No, it was a stalemate and the hirogen were leaving. As they began to bugger off under a cease fire, Janeway forced on the new Hirogen leader the Holotechnology she promised the old Hirogen leader who was killed by the new hirogen leader because he did not like Holographic prey.

Janeway forged a temporary alliance with the Borg because the Borg were being beaten about by Species 8472, a very powerful faction that also threatened the rest of the galaxy. They had to be stopped. No ifs no buts.

It's Starfleets job to make friends out of strangers and even... ESPECIALLY Friends out of Enemies. It's about peaceful exploration my friend. Using their "words". We now know that 8472 was posturing because they were afraid of the Borg and since they had no reason not to believe that everyone else in the galaxy was just as friendly as the Borg, it's not like Star Fleet doesn't have it's own scorched earth policies like general order 24. Everyone was just a bit of a drama queen that day, nothing to write home about.

Tuvix was demerged back into Tuvok and Neelix, to save the latter two from virtual death, because Tuvix was a pure accident that could be fixed and keeping him around left two other people dead.

Maintaining a Null quantum state is not death. Ask Shrodingers cat from Peanuts. Janeway was going to let him live until Kes said she needed her boyfriend but dumped him like a used up tube of tooth paste a couple episodes later for all the undying love she felt for him. If Kes had already dumped him and didn't advocate for Neelix, then Tuvok would have been on the ship in season Seven. Swayed by a child's frakking tears.

They're bad decisions on principle, but only taken into isolation and ignoring the worse alternatives.

You mean Janeway got lucky that she never made the wrong decision even when it seemed like a dick move?

 

[DonIago]

Just because there may be a worse alternative doesn't mean a decision isn't bad. Among other things that's precluding the possibility of any better alternatives.

And sometimes there's -no- good decision. Kobayashi Maru.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Every time fate get's nauseous, my life's the bucket".

Drew Carey.

You have to remember that there are infinite timelines in play here that every possible decision is played out and the author/producer has decided to only take the most favourable route and even back up and reset the the entire story if they walked down the wrong path.

I mention this because the Voyager story is disjoint. From episode 5ish through to Fury the Voyager that strove on home from that point,we never saw the ships adventures they went though before that point that anythign could be completely different in any given episode.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Reading through all this makes me think they should have wrapped up Voyager with a "Trial of Captain Janeway" TV movie (or novel), where she has to account for all her actions in the Delta Quadrant upon her return.

Q can show up and transplant suprise witnesses starting with Mage Kullah, the Hirogen, the Malon, Boothby8472, the Borg Queen and even the ghost of Tuvix.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Reading through all this makes me think they should have wrapped up Voyager with a "Trial of Captain Janeway" TV movie (or novel), where she has to account for all her actions in the Delta Quadrant upon her return..

We did that here shortly after Voyager ended. I can't remember if she was actually found guilty or not during the court martial, but it did play out.

It would be interesting to try it again. I'm not sure who would be Janeway this go around, though.

 

[exodus]

The Hirogen weren't going to leave without the holodeck technology. They would have brought in more hunters and probably retaken the ship if she had refused to give it to them. What the Hirogen did with it afterwards was their own fault.

Janeway did regret her decision. In "Flesh and Blood," she agonized over it, saying that all of this was her fault. This is why she didn't punish the EMH for his duplicity. Janeway says to the EMH, "Maybe . . . you've simply become as fallible as those of us who are made of flesh and blood. I'm just as responsible for allowing you to expand your programming as I am for giving technology to the Hirogen. How can I punish you for being who you are?" IOW, I think Janeway concedes here that she is ultimately responsible for all that happened.

Exactly.

So how many times is she going to let him betray the crew?

I thought the events of renaissance man was enough to see the bugger decompiled. Fighting the crew to rescue the captain, because that's just one step beyond/above blowing himself up to distract the captains kidnappers.

Sorry but what you think and what is true are very different things.
If Janeway and the crew allowed him to grow and develope to be more "human" & have all the same rights and privilages we do, then they have to accept all the faults and mistakes that come with it. It's part of the responsability you take on when you give any being the rights of freedom. Every single member of the main crew has disobeyed Janeway and put the crew at risk and some point in the show, not once was it ever a thought to put any of them to death. Janeway never punished any of them for it(repremand, yes), only Tom due his his melding in forigen affairs of another govenment.

We don't give the death penality to folks for making mistakes, not even is the military.

 

[TedShatner10]

Some nerd rage idiots (like RedLetterMedia) assume that Janeway forged an alliance with the Borg for the sake of it, when Species 8472 were blatantly the greater evil and if Spcies 8472 were comparatively benign to non-Borg the nerd ragers would accuse Janeway of aiding and abetting genocide by letting 8472 wipe out the Borg by not helping them, so you can't really win.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Exactly.

So how many times is she going to let him betray the crew?

I thought the events of renaissance man was enough to see the bugger decompiled. Fighting the crew to rescue the captain, because that's just one step beyond/above blowing himself up to distract the captains kidnappers.

Sorry but what you think and what is true are very different things.
If Janeway and the crew allowed him to grow and develope to be more "human" & have all the same rights and privilages we do, then they have to accept all the faults and mistakes that come with it. It's part of the responsability you take on when you give any being the rights of freedom. Every single member of the main crew has disobeyed Janeway and put the crew at risk and some point in the show, not once was it ever a thought to put any of them to death. Janeway never punished any of them for it(repremand, yes), only Tom due his his melding in forigen affairs of another govenment.

We don't give the death penality to folks for making mistakes, not even is the military.

The Doctor was a really advanced geopet. His attempts at gaining humanity and growing were supposed to be "charming" for the human audience, but when that Charmingness becomes dangerous, some one has to step in and whack the bastard on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, and that's why the Doctor executed the Equinox EMH. he could have said "pause" or "turn off" or "reinitialize moral imperative subroutines" but he chose the word "delete" because that hologram was out of control and most likely not as real as he was. Since the rest of the crew and perhaps Kim are certainly more real than the Doctor they can follow the precedence he set forth.

In a military situation, the captain would have been expendable and the entire crew would have put their mind forward to rescue the captain of give her murderers a bloody nose in the trying. The Doctor on the other hand was acting like they took his daughter (yes he's that arrogant, in his mind he sees himself as a father and elder statesman to most of the crew which is why he always gives such lofty counsel.) capitulated to terrorist demands and honestly at what point was he going to stop handing over anything the kidnappers asked for to get the Captain back?

Marooning the crew and handing over Voyagers pink slips?

He didn't have the rank or the authority to make those decisions, and bedsides we've watched Speed. You know what to do in these situations when it's question of control and leverage. You shoot the hostage.

Even if he was doing the so called right thing, there should have been consequences. I remember a powerpuff girls episode where the kids broke out of jail to save the day and after the dust settled it was found that they were heroes and had always been innocent of the crimes which landed them in the pokey BUT... There's a 3 week fine for breaking out of jail and they were frog marched back to jail to serve their time. There are usually heavy consequences for doing especially the right thing.

Though Honestly I think i might have to watch this episode for the second time EVER some time today. It's really dire.

 

[exodus]

So how many times is she going to let him betray the crew?

I thought the events of renaissance man was enough to see the bugger decompiled. Fighting the crew to rescue the captain, because that's just one step beyond/above blowing himself up to distract the captains kidnappers.

Sorry but what you think and what is true are very different things.
If Janeway and the crew allowed him to grow and develope to be more "human" & have all the same rights and privilages we do, then they have to accept all the faults and mistakes that come with it. It's part of the responsability you take on when you give any being the rights of freedom. Every single member of the main crew has disobeyed Janeway and put the crew at risk and some point in the show, not once was it ever a thought to put any of them to death. Janeway never punished any of them for it(repremand, yes), only Tom due his his melding in forigen affairs of another govenment.

We don't give the death penality to folks for making mistakes, not even is the military.

The Doctor was a really advanced geopet. His attempts at gaining humanity and growing were supposed to be "charming" for the human audience, but when that Charmingness becomes dangerous, some one has to step in and whack the bastard on the nose with a rolled up newspaper, and that's why the Doctor executed the Equinox EMH. he could have said "pause" or "turn off" or "reinitialize moral imperative subroutines" but he chose the word "delete" because that hologram was out of control and most likely not as real as he was. Since the rest of the crew and perhaps Kim are certainly more real than the Doctor they can follow the precedence he set forth.

In a military situation, the captain would have been expendable and the entire crew would have put their mind forward to rescue the captain of give her murderers a bloody nose in the trying. The Doctor on the other hand was acting like they took his daughter (yes he's that arrogant, in his mind he sees himself as a father and elder statesman to most of the crew which is why he always gives such lofty counsel.) capitulated to terrorist demands and honestly at what point was he going to stop handing over anything the kidnappers asked for to get the Captain back?

Marooning the crew and handing over Voyagers pink slips?

He didn't have the rank or the authority to make those decisions, and bedsides we've watched Speed. You know what to do in these situations when it's question of control and leverage. You shoot the hostage.

Even if he was doing the so called right thing, there should have been consequences. I remember a powerpuff girls episode where the kids broke out of jail to save the day and after the dust settled it was found that they were heroes and had always been innocent of the crimes which landed them in the pokey BUT... There's a 3 week fine for breaking out of jail and they were frog marched back to jail to serve their time. There are usually heavy consequences for doing especially the right thing.

Though Honestly I think i might have to watch this episode for the second time EVER some time today. It's really dire.

What the hell?
The Powerpuff Girls?
Speed?
Shooting hostages?
This doesn't even make any sense, Guy.