Janeway's worst decisions?
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
- Start date
They were an allegory (according to the back of a Voyager trading card printed in the mid ninties) an allegory for the African American Urban gang problem. So, it's as dicey to admit that as it is to extrapolate from that strange secret origin.
Besides the number of Sects, their powers,positions and dispositions change daily... (the number "16" was given at one point.) And it was the Kazon Oogla which Janeway had her initial run in with who was not seen again until the episode with Nog. It was the Kazon Nistrim who "chased" Janeway who in turn had no bad blood against the Federation of Janeway.
Besides remeber Janeways spech about "changing the balance of power int he quadrant" as she explained why they couldn't let sleeping dogs lay after Seeska ran away with some good tech after a well planned ramraid? It was a good speech and very Starfleet captainy of her then compared to the selfish years to come.
Besides the number of Sects, their powers,positions and dispositions change daily... (the number "16" was given at one point.) And it was the Kazon Oogla which Janeway had her initial run in with who was not seen again until the episode with Nog. It was the Kazon Nistrim who "chased" Janeway who in turn had no bad blood against the Federation of Janeway.
Besides remeber Janeways spech about "changing the balance of power int he quadrant" as she explained why they couldn't let sleeping dogs lay after Seeska ran away with some good tech after a well planned ramraid? It was a good speech and very Starfleet captainy of her then compared to the selfish years to come.
The Hirogen weren't going to leave without the holodeck technology. They would have brought in more hunters and probably retaken the ship if she had refused to give it to them. What the Hirogen did with it afterwards was their own fault.
Janeway did regret her decision. In "Flesh and Blood," she agonized over it, saying that all of this was her fault. This is why she didn't punish the EMH for his duplicity. Janeway says to the EMH, "Maybe . . . you've simply become as fallible as those of us who are made of flesh and blood. I'm just as responsible for allowing you to expand your programming as I am for giving technology to the Hirogen. How can I punish you for being who you are?" IOW, I think Janeway concedes here that she is ultimately responsible for all that happened.
Janeway did regret her decision. In "Flesh and Blood," she agonized over it, saying that all of this was her fault. This is why she didn't punish the EMH for his duplicity. Janeway says to the EMH, "Maybe . . . you've simply become as fallible as those of us who are made of flesh and blood. I'm just as responsible for allowing you to expand your programming as I am for giving technology to the Hirogen. How can I punish you for being who you are?" IOW, I think Janeway concedes here that she is ultimately responsible for all that happened.
Meanwhile I am, but I can't help it, because the truth uses me like a little bitch.
Listen to her language. She was washing her self clean of all guilt complicity and shame by pardoning the Doctor, because he was just a proxy for her own issues. If he's newly revirginized innocent, then she's newly revirginized innocent. And that's only dealing with the ethical issues involved. What she did was criminal. Literally. If the girl wanted to own up for her "crime" then she should have done the time or at the very least resigned or given us a delightfully relevant trial.
In the Hirogen leadership structure there were camps. Probably many camps. But the guy who wanted the holotech was killed, and the guy who didn't want it was in charge. Maybe if there was a political shift afterwards some new/other Hirogen leader might come back for the tech, but the current people in charge at that time were sick of the entire concept. Janeway forced the tech on the hunters when they clearly were not interested and had killed their own kind to prove their disinterest.
Listen to her language. She was washing her self clean of all guilt complicity and shame by pardoning the Doctor, because he was just a proxy for her own issues. If he's newly revirginized innocent, then she's newly revirginized innocent. And that's only dealing with the ethical issues involved. What she did was criminal. Literally. If the girl wanted to own up for her "crime" then she should have done the time or at the very least resigned or given us a delightfully relevant trial.
In the Hirogen leadership structure there were camps. Probably many camps. But the guy who wanted the holotech was killed, and the guy who didn't want it was in charge. Maybe if there was a political shift afterwards some new/other Hirogen leader might come back for the tech, but the current people in charge at that time were sick of the entire concept. Janeway forced the tech on the hunters when they clearly were not interested and had killed their own kind to prove their disinterest.
When she gave the holotech over, she specifically tells them that they don't have to use it. She says she's upholding her end of the agreement, and, at the very least, the piece of tech would make a nice trophy for a bulkhead.
I really doubt she expected them to actually try to use it based on that last line in The Killing Game.
That doesn't excuse or whatever. I just want to point out, Gardner, that she didn't force anything on the Hirogen.
I really doubt she expected them to actually try to use it based on that last line in The Killing Game.
That doesn't excuse or whatever. I just want to point out, Gardner, that she didn't force anything on the Hirogen.
I remember the script somewhat, and it is precisely that she had to back around give the holotech to the hirogen as tribal art they would hang up on their wall is exactly my qualification for being so alarmed because it's like selling atomic weapons as anvils to the third world.
They didn't want it, they (no one living) certainly didn't ask for it, and only took it because they were sure they wouldn't use the datacore, and it would shut that woman up, and probably stop her from any vengeance kick where she hunted the hunters because she was allowed to seem benevolent and graceful like tribal villagers sacrificing virgins to their volcano god.
Although, it was obviously a long game. lo it take ten generations, some one was going to take the bugger off the wall and give holography another chance. More likely these Hirgoen probably sold/bartered the optronic datacore and frankly the technology was sold faster than Voyager could voyage. It's just a question of if the tech was used and sold, or just sold as it got turfed from pack to pack in exchange for maybe beer or fast food?
There is no indication that it was sold, no.
I liked Lt Carey myself so I'll go with your one lol
I've been of the opinion that things happened for a reason. the Adnmiral waited till after Joe was dead. Joe had to be dead or her trip back would have been a balls up. What was Joe doing? Or more accurately "who" was Joe doing. Seven and Chakotay could never have hooked up if Seven was dating Joe, and if it was Janeway who was dating Joe, then of course she NEEDED to avoid the scandal of dating a MARRIED man upon returning to the AQ.
Sold/bartered/traded/given away/fabricated/massproduced. Exactly how unified under a single benevolent government of which those spuds in the killing game were the utmost leaders do you think that dying society observed? Compare it to perhaps the tenuous political allignment of the former states of the USSR. Even if the first blokes decided the optronic datacore was useless and "gave it away" to some one who saw value in it. these new Hirogen had to have some method of running a/many holopark(s) which seemed profitable above the benevolent vitalification of thier people even if it was just a political banner to get all the Hirogen to rally under the dominance of a single pack, which would need then that they mercilessly maintained their control of the technology becuase if every one had it, there would be no need to gather (movie theatre vs home theatre.) thus changing the balance of power in the quadrant in one way or another, and they would have fumbled any grab for ultimate power.
Sold/bartered/traded/given away/fabricated/massproduced. Exactly how unified under a single benevolent government of which those spuds in the killing game were the utmost leaders do you think that dying society observed? Compare it to perhaps the tenuous political allignment of the former states of the USSR. Even if the first blokes decided the optronic datacore was useless and "gave it away" to some one who saw value in it. these new Hirogen had to have some method of running a/many holopark(s) which seemed profitable above the benevolent vitalification of thier people even if it was just a political banner to get all the Hirogen to rally under the dominance of a single pack, which would need then that they mercilessly maintained their control of the technology becuase if every one had it, there would be no need to gather (movie theatre vs home theatre.) thus changing the balance of power in the quadrant in one way or another, and they would have fumbled any grab for ultimate power.
Wasn't her behavior in 07x07 Body and Soul when Voyager is approached by the alien police vessel in their own space pretty outrageous? Sure, they fired a warning shot directly at Voyager, but dismissing their demands for an inspection with the words "or we'll destroy your ship" and later maliciously and unprovoked disabling it with a phaser beam? Never mind the risk of having their entire armada converge on your position to have you (rightfully) prosecuted.
Never understood why she was ticked with him about that.
But worst command decision , taking on the drone.
Chakotay was a dick to countermand her orders and she was an idiot to assume that he wouldn't. kathy believed for some reason that her "orders" would carry on despite going against the new captain's conscience and general threat assessment when opening ones eyes in the morning because it is impossible for janeway to imagine that she is wrong or that any one would ever disagree with her.
And maybe the Borg only went mental and tried to assimilate the ship because Chakotay had screwed them over proving once more how "humans" cannot be trusted, which is as much as Seven said so in the episode, because if Chuckles had treated them like people instead of *&^%s, then maybe they would have kept to their word of honour too BECAUSE as Hugh said "the Borg do not assimilate individuals, they assimilate civilizations" which is also probably why the millions of cubes in the DQ which can fly thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of times faster than Voyager never really bothered to chase Janeway's rickety barge down..
And maybe the Borg only went mental and tried to assimilate the ship because Chakotay had screwed them over proving once more how "humans" cannot be trusted, which is as much as Seven said so in the episode, because if Chuckles had treated them like people instead of *&^%s, then maybe they would have kept to their word of honour too BECAUSE as Hugh said "the Borg do not assimilate individuals, they assimilate civilizations" which is also probably why the millions of cubes in the DQ which can fly thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of times faster than Voyager never really bothered to chase Janeway's rickety barge down..
Easily the three decisions which stand out above all her other terrible judgment calls are these:
1 - Blowing up the Caretaker's Array without using it to get the Voyager crew home. Might've made more sense if we hadn't also been told that the Ocampa would be forced to come to the surface in five years time even if the Array were destroyed. In fact, that's the reason Janeway uses for stranding her crew. Fine, except that Voyager, upon torpedoing the Array, breaks orbit and heads for the Alpha Quadrant, leaving the Ocampa to fend for themselves.
2 - Killing Tuvix to restore Neelix and Tuvok. Certainly a unique moral decision, only Janeway doesn't act very conflicted when she shoves the Doctor and Ensign Kim aside so that SHE can push the button! Even worse is Kes's despicable display of blackmail by turning on the waterworks. Not to mention the way the crew so quickly turns on Tuvix after allowing him to interact with them for several weeks. We don't even get to hear what Neelix or Tuvok feels about what's been done. The episode ends right then and there!
3 - Admiral Janeway making the arbitrary decision to time travel back to seven years after the Caretaker brought Voyager and the Maquis crew into the Delta Quadrant. As long as you're going to erase the memories, experiences and maybe even offspring of certain crew members from those later years because a handful of them didn't make it who could have had Voyager gotten home quicker, why not then go all out and zap yourself back to the moment when you decided to destroy the Caretaker's Array? Hell, she could have gone one step further still by keeping Voyager from ever getting sucked into the Delta Quadrant... maybe even the Maquis ship which had, you know, her best friend Tuvok onboard!
1 - Blowing up the Caretaker's Array without using it to get the Voyager crew home. Might've made more sense if we hadn't also been told that the Ocampa would be forced to come to the surface in five years time even if the Array were destroyed. In fact, that's the reason Janeway uses for stranding her crew. Fine, except that Voyager, upon torpedoing the Array, breaks orbit and heads for the Alpha Quadrant, leaving the Ocampa to fend for themselves.
2 - Killing Tuvix to restore Neelix and Tuvok. Certainly a unique moral decision, only Janeway doesn't act very conflicted when she shoves the Doctor and Ensign Kim aside so that SHE can push the button! Even worse is Kes's despicable display of blackmail by turning on the waterworks. Not to mention the way the crew so quickly turns on Tuvix after allowing him to interact with them for several weeks. We don't even get to hear what Neelix or Tuvok feels about what's been done. The episode ends right then and there!
3 - Admiral Janeway making the arbitrary decision to time travel back to seven years after the Caretaker brought Voyager and the Maquis crew into the Delta Quadrant. As long as you're going to erase the memories, experiences and maybe even offspring of certain crew members from those later years because a handful of them didn't make it who could have had Voyager gotten home quicker, why not then go all out and zap yourself back to the moment when you decided to destroy the Caretaker's Array? Hell, she could have gone one step further still by keeping Voyager from ever getting sucked into the Delta Quadrant... maybe even the Maquis ship which had, you know, her best friend Tuvok onboard!
Because that would condemn Annika Hansen, Icheb, Mezoti, Rebi, Azan and the all important Borg baby to life/death as BORG.
You do understand that the Borg like being Borg? Like? LOVE! the Borg love being Borg. Why it's almost racist, no, it is racist to say that Borg should look down on themselves and have their identity forcibly changed at gun point! Such arrogant behaviour is also mean spirited and cruel and honestly no better than the Borg, well actually the Borg are better since "we" would rather kill Borg if we can't gouge out individual consciousnesses them from the loving succour of the hive mind, but the Collective is happy enough to let us run free until the lucky day they bless us with the assimilation we need and deserve to become as perfect as we have always strived to be. They're like the Blue Fairy from Pinochio in reverse if we wished his wish backwards on a star... Actually it's like the star wished on us.
Ever tried to tell some one they're taking too much heroin?
Ever tried to tell some one they're taking too much heroin?
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