Janeway - worthy TREK Captain or not?
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Actually, in the episode Pathfinder, the Admiral Janeway was talking to indicated that Janeway had "the most first contacts of any captain since Kirk," so Kirk, according to official canon, still holds the record.
My two cents, Janeway was certainly a worthy ST captain, but I don't think she was the best. I don't think she always made the right decisions (Scorpion, Endgame, and I was a bit horrified to see how she was acting in Equinox) and she didn't seem like the naturals that Kirk and Picard were. But, then, she shouldn't just be a female version of either of those two characters in any case.
Bryan Fuller, the VOY producer, even admitted that Janeway was not as good a captain as Kirk and Picard, but he said Janeway was the one captain he'd like to have a cup of coffee with, essentially implying that her strength was always her humanity.
She was certainly right up there, I'm sure, with Kirk in the way she was perceived by the public and probably most SF officers after what she did.
As the OP of this thread that was what I was driving at. TREK always seems to want is Captains to be able to reside in soe sort of pantheon of heroes - living life large and making hard decisions that seem to always pay off.
Janeway to me was different. Strong yes, but in a different way. More human to me, more like what your typical starfleet captain might actually be.
Janeway to me was different. Strong yes, but in a different way. More human to me, more like what your typical starfleet captain might actually be.
I'm about halfway through season 3, and I think she looks very, very natural. I enjoy watching her stride around--stride around the bridge, through corridors, through action sequences on planets. When I first watched the first season and a half, plus pick-ups in the years thereafter, I didn't reallly notice. But watching them dvd, I'm actually pretty impressed with Mulgrew. Even Tuvix, which I think was immoral, and I never intend to watch again, showcases an excellent Mulgrew performance. She's got lots of different layers to her voice and body language that I think really makes Janeway come alive. Sure, there are some episodes that don't showcase a captain at her best, but with a t.v. show, you have to realize that there will be a few duds as writers grasp for ideas--as a whole, though--a very, very impressive captain. Best, not best--I have a tough time comparing her to Kirk or Picard, she's just too different in her female-ness. I'd follow her into a battle, search and rescue, or a party, though!
Janeway's compassion has never been in serious question. She exhibits extraordinary empathy, at times ... and I fully comprehend why her crew is so fanatically loyal.
Her decision making, however, is clearly another matter: It's been demonstrated highly questionable on frequent occasion. As I've said (and firmly supported) time and again, she should have been court martialed—not necessarily convicted on all counts, but definitely hauled before the bench—on numerous charges upon her return to the Alpha Quadrant. She's a little too enamored with her own opinion ... and far too easily influenced by purely emotional considerations, to the detriment of her judgment.
I always find it amusing, in addition, when people excuse a character's actions because the scripting was inconsistent. Hate to tell you this, guys and gals, but ... it still means she took those actions, in universe. Kathryn Janeway was the most inconsistently written character in the history of Star Trek ... and in my opinion Kate Mulgrew made some fairly good lemonade with the lemons they handed her.
A dislike of Mulgrew herself is a matter of personal taste: To each their own. I always thought she was both cool and hot, if you take my meaning ... and her skills are beyond reproach.
Do I think she's the consummate captain? By no means. Do I think she should be granted a significant amount of slack considering the situation in which she found (or, if you're particularly cynical, thrust) herself? Indeed so.
I've cut into Janeway pretty consistently over the years, with ample justification. But I'll grant her this: I wager plenty of captains in those circumstances wouldn't have done nearly so well.
Her decision making, however, is clearly another matter: It's been demonstrated highly questionable on frequent occasion. As I've said (and firmly supported) time and again, she should have been court martialed—not necessarily convicted on all counts, but definitely hauled before the bench—on numerous charges upon her return to the Alpha Quadrant. She's a little too enamored with her own opinion ... and far too easily influenced by purely emotional considerations, to the detriment of her judgment.
I always find it amusing, in addition, when people excuse a character's actions because the scripting was inconsistent. Hate to tell you this, guys and gals, but ... it still means she took those actions, in universe. Kathryn Janeway was the most inconsistently written character in the history of Star Trek ... and in my opinion Kate Mulgrew made some fairly good lemonade with the lemons they handed her.
A dislike of Mulgrew herself is a matter of personal taste: To each their own. I always thought she was both cool and hot, if you take my meaning ... and her skills are beyond reproach.
Do I think she's the consummate captain? By no means. Do I think she should be granted a significant amount of slack considering the situation in which she found (or, if you're particularly cynical, thrust) herself? Indeed so.
I've cut into Janeway pretty consistently over the years, with ample justification. But I'll grant her this: I wager plenty of captains in those circumstances wouldn't have done nearly so well.
Mrs Paris
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the only reason I said that is because she makes some more after that episode, so who knows, maybe she did get more in the end
well captain's are only human, they can make mistakes. EVERYONE makes mistakes
But not everyone agrees on what's a questionable decision. I think the Tuvix decision was deplorable, others disagree. The decisions that I think are the absolute worst are pretty easy to skip when I go through dvds, so it just doesn't bug me. It's interesting--but I couldn't follow this show in it's first run. I got bored. But when I can watch a couple in a day every day for a couple of months, it all evens out, and I like the show. Maybe that's why I cut it some slack.
I thought it was standard procedure to have a debriefing after each mission where decisions would be scrutinized. A court marshal would be if suspicion of criminal activity arose from the debriefing.
One could say that Janeway played loose with the Price Directive a few times but then so did every other Trek captain. The funny thing is though no one is calling for Kirk or Picard to be court marshaled. As for Janway having a high opinion of herself that's called self-confidence - again a common trait with Kirk and Picard.
Careful about pointing up at me and quoting "Best Captain"--I never said that! The thread title doesn't say it either!
^ Good point. I got a little carried away.
Due to the killing/murder of Tuvix as discussed in the Tuvix thread, I'm gonna say no, Janeway is not a worthy Trek Captain.
In several episodes of Voyager, Janeway gives lectures about sticking to the Federation principles no matter what. One of the Federation's main principles is to respect all life. Yet when there came a chance to resurrect her personal friends, she did not have much respect for the life of Tuvix when she coldly killed/murdered him without even so much as a kind word to him first.
As such IMO Janeway was a bad Captain and not fit to represent the Federation in any way.
In several episodes of Voyager, Janeway gives lectures about sticking to the Federation principles no matter what. One of the Federation's main principles is to respect all life. Yet when there came a chance to resurrect her personal friends, she did not have much respect for the life of Tuvix when she coldly killed/murdered him without even so much as a kind word to him first.
As such IMO Janeway was a bad Captain and not fit to represent the Federation in any way.
Once again. Tuvix is still alive in Neelix and Tuvok. Tuvok mentions in a later episode that he retains memories of his time as Tuvix..
Of course, that doesn't mean the scene wasn't disturbing to watch.
the only reason I said that is because she makes some more after that episode, so who knows, maybe she did get more in the end
With only four episodes after that, the only new species she could've contacted were the ones in that episode where Chakotay and Seven crash-landed into the partioned part of that planet with the primitive culture.
Since the Admiral in Friendship 1 (I got the name of that episode wrong, it's not Pathfinder), didn't say something like," You've nearly beaten Kirk," I think it's safe to assume Kirk still holds the record.
Coming close to that record, coupled with how she handled and worked the Borg, I can see Janeway being up there with Kirk in the public eyes. She's probably regarded as being greater than Picard and Sisko in the public eye, which is one of the reasons I think they made her an admiral.
Mrs Paris
Captain
the only reason I said that is because she makes some more after that episode, so who knows, maybe she did get more in the end
With only four episodes after that, the only new species she could've contacted were the ones in that episode where Chakotay and Seven crash-landed into the partioned part of that planet with the primitive culture.
Since the Admiral in Friendship 1 (I got the name of that episode wrong, it's not Pathfinder), didn't say something like," You've nearly beaten Kirk," I think it's safe to assume Kirk still holds the record.
Coming close to that record, coupled with how she handled and worked the Borg, I can see Janeway being up there with Kirk in the public eyes. She's probably regarded as being greater than Picard and Sisko in the public eye, which is one of the reasons I think they made her an admiral.
you are most likely completely right. But it's been shown in the past that we don't see all of their adventures
I also think you have to include the perception of the general populous.
I think of Sisko as being more like a Petraeus: Yeah, everyone recognizes his name, but anyone who isn't completely up with the goings in the war probably doesn't really know who he is.
Janeway, on the other hand, is more like John Glenn. Her feats were romanticized by the media and what not and she was made larger than life. Everyone knew who she was and her promotion was typical politics and beauracracy on Starfleet's part.
I think of Sisko as being more like a Petraeus: Yeah, everyone recognizes his name, but anyone who isn't completely up with the goings in the war probably doesn't really know who he is.
Janeway, on the other hand, is more like John Glenn. Her feats were romanticized by the media and what not and she was made larger than life. Everyone knew who she was and her promotion was typical politics and beauracracy on Starfleet's part.
Please, Janeway deserved to become Admiral after all she did to get her ship home. There is no such proof of the media romanticizing anything.
Sisko still beat out Kirk, Picard & Janeway by becoming a God.
Dude, it was a hypothetical analogy.
Calm down.
Calm down.
I don't recall Sisko becoming a god. He wasn't all knowing, omnipotent, etc. He was just taken away by the Bajoran worm-hole aliens.
So there is an all-encompassing definition of what makes up a god?
I'd say Sisko was more like an Eisenhower, Bradley, or one of those other WWII heroes. You're analogy's a good one though, Sisko ended up being a war hero, while Janeway is probably more recognized as being a peer with Kirk as an explorer.
Now, what about Captain Picard?
This is actually an interesting question: how the Federation public perceives these characters. We know they have a media service and we do have some indications about their notoriety via fellow officers, members of the media, politicians, etc.
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