Janeway in the cases of Quinn and Tuvix

[MatthiasRussell]

The episodes “Death Wish” and “Tuvix” are only a few episodes apart and both weigh the rights of the individual against the needs/desires of the majority.

In “Death Wish”, Janeway rules Quinn has the right to live his life as he chooses, even if that means his own death. Her verdict implies that the majority have no right to tell him how he should live or die and his rights should be protected no matter how they impact society.

In “Tuvix”, Janeway rules that the individual has no rights if it impacts the life and pursuit of happiness of others. If a person’s free will must be sacrificed for the good of others, then it needs to be done.

Did Janeway exercise a double standard in a brief period? Do these cases compare? Does it make a difference that Tuvix was under her command but Q was not?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

of course in the case of Tuvix, I think if Janeway would have done her research about transporter incidents she would have found the case of Will and Tom Riker and perhaps would have attempted locking two transporter beams on him so she could keep one Tuvix alive while splitting the other.

 

[Cmdr.Druss]

I don't see a double standard here, as the cases are different.

In the case of Tuvix, for 1 person to live meant 2 people effectively had to die. This isn't the case with Quinn - Regardless if he lived or died, no others lives were tied to his.

I wonder what would have happened if Tuvix had been created in addition to Tuvox and Nelix, like the case of Will and Tom Riker.

 

[MacLeod]

Is the case in "TuVix" a little greyer than that Druss. A Transporter accident combined Neelix and Tuvok, in essence killing Neelix and Tuvok. So couldn't they be considered killed in a Transporter accident?

A New individual was created in the accident, what about his rights? I'm fairly sure that the Federation Charter includes several articles relating to an indviduals right to choose.

 

[sonak]

different situation-Tuvix was basically(obviously unintentionally) denying Neelix and Tuvok the right to their own lives. Janeway was upholding the rights of those two against Tuvix's. Whether you agree with that or not, it's a different perspective.

Quinn's decision didn't affect anyone else's rights.

 

[DonIago]

I think it would have been more interesting if "Tuvix" had taken place over a period of a few months or longer. Get the crew accustomed to him, then have the Doc realize he can be unmade to restore Tuvok and Neelix.

It feels uncomfortably arbitrary to me that an individual might have the right to exist if they're 30 days old, but not if they're only 15 days old.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Tuvix was alive for some time in which time Tuvok and Neelix could and maybe should have been considered legally dead. Tuvix wasn't killed to save 2 lives, he was killed to bring 2 people back from the dead.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Quinn's decision didn't affect anyone else's rights.

It affected the rights, legal system, and principles of an entire society that Janeway couldn't understand and resulted in a civil war that killed several Q.

 

[sonak]

Quinn's decision didn't affect anyone else's rights.

It affected the rights, legal system, and principles of an entire society that Janeway couldn't understand and resulted in a civil war that killed several Q.

no it didn't. Personal decisions are personal ones. The Q might have used Quinn's decision as the excuse for a civil war, but he was not the cause of it.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

I don't think that it is a double standard because these decisions affect entirely different environments. In the case of Quinn, his decision was (as many have said) a personal one and any effect that it would have on the Continuum would be due to subjective opinions of other Qs.

In the case of Tuvix, he was the combination of two critical officers of Voyager's crew. Though Tuvix displayed a vast majority of those skills, he could not perform them at the proficency of the original officers. Tuvix was made of both Neelix and Tuvok, and to keep him alive would be to condemn two officers to certain death. Why should Janeway allow that if there is a chance to save them? Yes Tuvix is a life form himself, but so are Neelix and Tuvok.

 

[DonIago]

So if some of Voyager's officers are considered "critical", does that mean they wouldn't be allowed to leave the ship if they wished to?

Because if they're allowed to leave the ship voluntarily, then clearly Voyager -can- function without them, at least in the estimation of whomever is allowing them to leave.

Also, I believe it's explicitly stated in the episode that Tuvix -is- doing both Tuvok's and Nellix's jobs as proficiently as either of them did, and possibly better in some ways. Granted he can't perform both simultaneously, but that seems like a rather unrealistic expectation.

I also wish people arguing that allowing Tuvix to live was condemning Tuvok/Neelix to die would offer an opinion as to at what point Tuvix would earn the right to live. I find it interesting that nobody ever seems willing to address that point.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Tuvix was made of both Neelix and Tuvok, and to keep him alive would be to condemn two officers to certain death. Why should Janeway allow that if there is a chance to save them? Yes Tuvix is a life form himself, but so are Neelix and Tuvok.

Neelix and Tuvok were already dead. They were lost in a transporter accident as has happened to many Starfleet officers.

Janeway gave up that one alien made up of the body of a dead crewman who still had her memories. So did Janeway have a double standard in her case? Should Janeway have fought to keep that one woman aboard and kept trying to restore her humanity?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

So if some of Voyager's officers are considered "critical", does that mean they wouldn't be allowed to leave the ship if they wished to?

Because if they're allowed to leave the ship voluntarily, then clearly Voyager -can- function without them, at least in the estimation of whomever is allowing them to leave.

That is a good point. I can see the end of the episode "the 37s" where Janeway offers to let anyone who wishes stay. she walks into the cargobay and 2 crewman are standing there. She says, "Too bad, you are needed here and I'm not letting you stay. Get back to work."

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I can't believe so many people can't see that the cases of Quinn and Tuvix are both cases of the rights of the individual vs the will of the majority with her verdict in both cases resulting in the death of the individual.

In the case of Quinn, Janeway decides the rights of the individual is more important than the will and laws of the state.

In the case of Tuvix, she decides the good of whole is more important than the pursuit of life and liberty for the individual. Plus, it seems her decision was more of an emotional one than a rational one. When Kes came to her in tears saying she wanted Neelix back, Janeway couldn't refuse.

 

[DonIago]

That moment didn't exactly endear me to Kes.

 

[MacLeod]

I can't believe so many people can't see that the cases of Quinn and Tuvix are both cases of the rights of the individual vs the will of the majority with her verdict in both cases resulting in the death of the individual.

In the case of Quinn, Janeway decides the rights of the individual is more important than the will and laws of the state.

In the case of Tuvix, she decides the good of whole is more important than the pursuit of life and liberty for the individual. Plus, it seems her decision was more of an emotional one than a rational one. When Kes came to her in tears saying she wanted Neelix back, Janeway couldn't refuse.

Easy to say I know but Justice is supposed to be rational not emotional. I.e. based on the evidence not the emotions that can come with that.

In the case of Tuvix when is he entitiled to the rights afforded Tuvok or Neelix? Or is he not enttitled to those rights?

 

[Sindatur]

I can't believe so many people can't see that the cases of Quinn and Tuvix are both cases of the rights of the individual vs the will of the majority with her verdict in both cases resulting in the death of the individual.

In the case of Quinn, Janeway decides the rights of the individual is more important than the will and laws of the state.

In the case of Tuvix, she decides the good of whole is more important than the pursuit of life and liberty for the individual. Plus, it seems her decision was more of an emotional one than a rational one. When Kes came to her in tears saying she wanted Neelix back, Janeway couldn't refuse.

Easy to say I know but Justice is supposed to be rational not emotional. I.e. based on the evidence not the emotions that can come with that.

In the case of Tuvix when is he entitiled to the rights afforded Tuvok or Neelix? Or is he not enttitled to those rights?

My opinion, would be, when he is told he is welcome to the life, that efforts to reverse the accident have been exhausted and Tuvok and Neelix are given up on. Until then, he is living their lives, they should be allowed to be saved, they weren't dead, they were merged.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I can't believe so many people can't see that the cases of Quinn and Tuvix are both cases of the rights of the individual vs the will of the majority with her verdict in both cases resulting in the death of the individual.

Oh, we see it, some of us just disagree with your rationale.

Those for separating Tuvix BELIEVE in the rights of the individual Tuvok and the individual Neelix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYPMiXO0-fA&feature=related

On the other hand... blaming the civil war on Quinn gives him too much power. Quinn's deathwish wasn't a catalyst as much as a symptom of the flaws in the Q continuum. Flaws that "our" Q had admitted to during and at the end of the episode.

Q: Illogical, Tuvok? I don't think so. By demanding to end his life, he taught me a little something about my own. He was right when he said the Continuum scared me back in line. I didn't have his courage or his convictions. He called me irrepressible. This was a man who was truly irrepressible. I only hope I make a worthy student.

JANEWAY: I imagine the Continuum won't be very happy with you, Q.
Q: I certainly hope not. Au revoir, Madam Captain. We will meet again.


As always... YMMV.

 

[MacLeod]

So you are basically saying as a lifeform Tuvix has no rights what so ever?

 

[Sindatur]

So you are basically saying as a lifeform Tuvix has no rights what so ever?

since JanewayRulez slid in before you, not sure if this is directed at me or her, but, no, that's not what I'm saying. He has all the rights (The right not to be imprisoned nor abused, the right to a meaningful life while he waits for Tuvok and Neelix to be saved or given up on, etc), except the right to deny Tuvok and Neelix from being saved if possible. Once that possibility is given up, then he also inherits the right to keep the body.