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Janeway Died? In Which Book?

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I like that they're doing something realistic with these characters now that there seems to be little preventing them from writing them in a different manner than that to which we've become accustomed.

Now that there's nothing left for the old continuity, why not invent new missions, let them grow, evolve...

Hell, get PROMOTED!
 
But what we are talking about here are tie-in books, not original series like Jericho and Babylon 5. Janeway was not only a main, she was the lead character of a Star Trek series and in the books she has been killed off. That is a different scenario. I know that I wouldn`t feel happy if I ever buy a Babylon 5 book and it is decided that for whatever reason it is a good idea to kill Delenn off for good and that decision will be continued in all future books.

Exactly!
 
But what we are talking about here are tie-in books, not original series like Jericho and Babylon 5. Janeway was not only a main, she was the lead character of a Star Trek series and in the books she has been killed off. That is a different scenario. I know that I wouldn`t feel happy if I ever buy a Babylon 5 book and it is decided that for whatever reason it is a good idea to kill Delenn off for good and that decision will be continued in all future books.

Exactly!
And here's where we differ.

I think that in either case, the story should be paramount; I don't think the books should be any more restricted than the series would've been, ESPECIALLY given that in this case all the series are long over. On the series, there's certainly the possibility that the creators would've killed someone off for story possibilities only; even if not Trek, showrunners like Joss Whedon do that kind of thing all the time. And so I feel the books should have the same liberty, as the story being told should be of primary importance. Whatever leads to the best story, by the judgments of the editors and writers, is what I think they should write. Period.

That is to say, I 100% see your point, and think it's a completely defensible position. I'm sorry that the books have crossed that line you don't think they should. I simply disagree; a difference of philosophy, not argument.
 
I like that they're doing something realistic with these characters now that there seems to be little preventing them from writing them in a different manner than that to which we've become accustomed.

Now that there's nothing left for the old continuity, why not invent new missions, let them grow, evolve...

Hell, get PROMOTED!

Be careful what you wish for. Abandoning existing Star Trek canon and continuity, changing the characters too much and killing off a few of them might lead to a decreasing interest from many fans who have learned to love the characters they've seen on screen.

There is actually an example here with a 60's German SF-series which only lasted for 7 episodes but became very popular in many European countries. So popular that they started to publish books about the continuing adventures about the heroes from the series.

However, it didn't take long before the author started to screw up the whole thing by changing the characters and also dumping some of them and replacing them with his own creations. That lead to a slow decrease of interest from the readers and in the long run it turned out to a "cosmic inferno" where the rights to publish the books were sold to one company, then another, then another. Other authors who got involved added more confusion by coming up with adventures from the youth of some of the heroes and there were also authors who deoided that the adventures should take place in the 20th century instead of the future. In other words: Total chaos which lead to the end of the book series.

Today no books are published but the 7 episodes have been on constant re-runs in different countries (mostly in Europe), a movie was recently made from 3-4 of the original TV episodes and in Germany there is a small but active fan group who keep this cult thing alive with fanfiction among other things.
 
There is actually an example here with a 60's German SF-series which only lasted for 7 episodes but became very popular in many European countries. So popular that they started to publish books about the continuing adventures about the heroes from the series.

However, it didn't take long before the author started to screw up the whole thing by changing the characters and also dumping some of them and replacing them with his own creations. That lead to a slow decrease of interest from the readers and in the long run it turned out to a "cosmic inferno" where the rights to publish the books were sold to one company, then another, then another. Other authors who got involved added more confusion by coming up with adventures from the youth of some of the heroes and there were also authors who deoided that the adventures should take place in the 20th century instead of the future. In other words: Total chaos which lead to the end of the book series.

Today no books are published but the 7 episodes have been on constant re-runs in different countries (mostly in Europe), a movie was recently made from 3-4 of the original TV episodes and in Germany there is a small but active fan group who keep this cult thing alive with fanfiction among other things.
As our friends at Wikipedia say, "[citation needed]". A title, at least, might be nice.
 
There is actually an example here with a 60's German SF-series which only lasted for 7 episodes but became very popular in many European countries. So popular that they started to publish books about the continuing adventures about the heroes from the series.

However, it didn't take long before the author started to screw up the whole thing by changing the characters and also dumping some of them and replacing them with his own creations. That lead to a slow decrease of interest from the readers and in the long run it turned out to a "cosmic inferno" where the rights to publish the books were sold to one company, then another, then another. Other authors who got involved added more confusion by coming up with adventures from the youth of some of the heroes and there were also authors who deoided that the adventures should take place in the 20th century instead of the future. In other words: Total chaos which lead to the end of the book series.

Today no books are published but the 7 episodes have been on constant re-runs in different countries (mostly in Europe), a movie was recently made from 3-4 of the original TV episodes and in Germany there is a small but active fan group who keep this cult thing alive with fanfiction among other things.
As our friends at Wikipedia say, "[citation needed]". A title, at least, might be nice.

And your wish will be fulfilled :):

The name of the German series was "Raumpatrouille" (Space Patrol in English) and what I've read, it was aired in Germany some months before the first TOS episode was aired in the US.

Sorry for omitting the title in my previous post. Sloppy writing by me and a bit thoughtless, to be honest.
 
Be careful what you wish for. Abandoning existing Star Trek canon and continuity, changing the characters too much and killing off a few of them might lead to a decreasing interest from many fans who have learned to love the characters they've seen on screen.

Well, no one's abandoned "existing Star Trek canon," as "canon" is usually defined as anything that occurred onscreen in the films and television series, and all books, comics and other tie-in fiction follow on from what is established in those episodes or films. Similarly, none of the books I have encountered "abandon...continuity," but rather follow on from the continuity established in the aforementioned television and/or film series (which oftentimes contradicted their own continuity, but that's a whooooole 'nother argument ;)).

As to the rest of what for the lack of a better term I shall call your argument, changes to characters or deaths of characters "might" lead to a decreasing interest from fans? Really? Aside from the easy response to this argument (basically just saying, "And it might not"), you're still repeating your tired old notion that people are going to make some mass exodus from the books, which is statistically not true, unless you have some data that shows that book sales have decreased dramatically in the more than a year since Before Dishonor was published.

I really am a little surprised that this argument is still going on, especially as it's evident that Lynx is not only not going to change her(?) mind, but also refuses to even understand the opposing points of view to her own. Indeed, I keep telling myself that I'm done with this thread, but I suppose the truth is that it's so damned entertaining watching her arguments get more and more nonsensical, as those in opposition try more and more ways to persuade her to make some sort of sense.

And it's definitely making me all the more anxious for Full Circle! :)
 
There is actually an example here with a 60's German SF-series which only lasted for 7 episodes but became very popular in many European countries. So popular that they started to publish books about the continuing adventures about the heroes from the series.

However, it didn't take long before the author started to screw up the whole thing by changing the characters and also dumping some of them and replacing them with his own creations. That lead to a slow decrease of interest from the readers and in the long run it turned out to a "cosmic inferno" where the rights to publish the books were sold to one company, then another, then another. Other authors who got involved added more confusion by coming up with adventures from the youth of some of the heroes and there were also authors who deoided that the adventures should take place in the 20th century instead of the future. In other words: Total chaos which lead to the end of the book series.

Today no books are published but the 7 episodes have been on constant re-runs in different countries (mostly in Europe), a movie was recently made from 3-4 of the original TV episodes and in Germany there is a small but active fan group who keep this cult thing alive with fanfiction among other things.
As our friends at Wikipedia say, "[citation needed]". A title, at least, might be nice.

And your wish will be fulfilled :):

The name of the German series was "Raumpatrouille" (Space Patrol in English) and what I've read, it was aired in Germany some months before the first TOS episode was aired in the US.

Sorry for omitting the title in my previous post. Sloppy writing by me and a bit thoughtless, to be honest.
It sounds to me like those books mostly just sucked; I'm not convinced it's a valid comparison.

And either way, your argument still boils down to, as ClayinCA so aptly put, "Star Trek fans might react the same way!" Without ANY SUPPORTING EVIDENCE that isn't anecdotal, your argument holds no water whatsoever.

If you want to explain what makes you upset about the books: great. And I've genuinely been enjoying that discussion. These kinds of pronouncements of doom are just silly, though. Do you understand the difference?
 
Similarly, none of the books I have encountered "abandon...continuity," but rather follow on from the continuity established in the aforementioned television and/or film series

And... the authors have often looped back to make retro corrections to aspects of the licensed fiction to account for new (often obscure) canonical events.

eg. Spock's mind affected by the "Doomsday Bug" in time for ST IV. (DC Comics)

Brother and sister captains - of the Repulse? - PAD caught out by an aired reference to gender.

The other Captain Shelby, after PAD was promised he could used Elizabeth Shelby as a first officer.

The forehead virus debacle in ENT, that was then extended to a few Trill to explain Trill forehead bumps.

The revisions made to "The Bloodwing Voyages" omnibus for "Rihannsu".

The safety nets such as "Remember!" in ST II, Dax the Trill symbiont in DS9, the B-4 in NEM, and Janeway off with the Q, provides the little hooks that can make such fixes possible. But the beauty is that they don't have to be used.
 
The name of the German series was "Raumpatrouille" (Space Patrol in English) and what I've read, it was aired in Germany some months before the first TOS episode was aired in the US.

Actually it started in Germany a week after TOS started in the US IIRC.
 
Similarly, none of the books I have encountered "abandon...continuity," but rather follow on from the continuity established in the aforementioned television and/or film series

And... the authors have often looped back to make retro corrections to aspects of the licensed fiction to account for new (often obscure) canonical events.

That's a really good point - I hadn't thought of that! :techman:

eg. Spock's mind affected by the "Doomsday Bug" in time for ST IV. (DC Comics)

Brother and sister captains - of the Repulse? - PAD caught out by an aired reference to gender.

The other Captain Shelby, after PAD was promised he could used Elizabeth Shelby as a first officer.

The forehead virus debacle in ENT, that was then extended to a few Trill to explain Trill forehead bumps.

The revisions made to "The Bloodwing Voyages" omnibus for "Rihannsu".

The safety nets such as "Remember!" in ST II, Dax the Trill symbiont in DS9, the B-4 in NEM, and Janeway off with the Q, provides the little hooks that can make such fixes possible. But the beauty is that they don't have to be used.

All good examples - but what was the "other Captain Shelby" reference? I'm ashamed to say I don't remember that one...
 
^DS9's "You Are Cordially Invited" featured a reference to a "Captain Shelby" of the Sutherland, who was intended to be the BOBW character because Ron Moore had forgotten that he'd told Pocket she'd never be mentioned onscreen again and they could use her for the books. Although apparently the episode describes the other Shelby as male anyway.
 
All good examples - but what was the "other Captain Shelby" reference? I'm ashamed to say I don't remember that one...

PAD was assured he could use Shelby freely, since the producers of onscreen ST were not intending to use her again, but then Ron Moore added a throwaway reference to a "Captain Shelby", and PAD got emails asking why NF's Shelby wasn't reflecting canon.

PAD wrote into NF a scene where Shelby hears about the other Shelby's promotion.

From Memory Alpha: "Regarding the reference to a Captain Shelby in the DS9 episode You Are Cordially Invited, Ronald D. Moore commented: My intent when I wrote the line was that this was indeed the same Shelby from BOBW. I thought it was a cool reference to throw in for the fans, but I had completely forgotten that John Ordover and Co. had very specifically and very politely asked us if we had any intention of ever using this character again and we (including me) had said, "No way – do what you want with her." This very salient fact was pointed out to me after the show had aired and I had a rather sheepish conversation with Paula Block over in licensing and with John via e-mail explaining what had happened. Since I only used Shelby's last name in the episode, you're free to look at this either way – it's really her or it's someone else with the same last name (it's a big fleet, after all)."
 
The name of the German series was "Raumpatrouille" (Space Patrol in English) and what I've read, it was aired in Germany some months before the first TOS episode was aired in the US.

Actually it started in Germany a week after TOS started in the US IIRC.

Interesting. I thought Raumpatrouille was older because it was done in black and white.

I am a big fan of the series. It is far ahead of its time, especially when you compare it with TOS. The stories are very well written, the role of the female characters is impressive even by today`s standards. The SFX was done sometimes using very simple tricks but are very effective.
 
I would just like to add that I doubt that overall book sales would suffer at all if there was not a single Voyager novel ever published again. I don't think the Voyager line has been 1) that good as a whole and 2) the other series are strong enough to carry Trek forward without Voyager. As a collector I will still buy Voyager books as they are released and maybe the two coming up will determine the ultimate fate of the series publishing viability. I don't know, but I do know that if the series in book form disappeared it would not bother me. It would just open up slots for the other series.

Kevin
 
I would just like to add that I doubt that overall book sales would suffer at all if there was not a single Voyager novel ever published again. I don't think the Voyager line has been 1) that good as a whole and 2) the other series are strong enough to carry Trek forward without Voyager. As a collector I will still buy Voyager books as they are released and maybe the two coming up will determine the ultimate fate of the series publishing viability. I don't know, but I do know that if the series in book form disappeared it would not bother me. It would just open up slots for the other series.

Kevin
Yeah, I agree with that. Frankly, I'd much rather read a Vanguard book or a New Frontier book than a Voyager book, though as I've said, I am looking forward to Full Circle - it's just that if the Voyager books did go away completely, it wouldn't bother me.
 
Well, every reader is going to have some series they don't care about getting more books in (New Frontier, Vanguard, and Enterprise could disappear forever without my batting an eyelash), but that's not evidence that the line as a whole would do as well without those series. Nor is the fact that particular readers don't think the Voyager books have been good.

Almost no one who posts here knows enough about Trek book sales to use those data in arguments; those who do know enough are bound by confidentiality not to do so. It might be helpful to confine our opinions to, well, our opinions, without claiming that this or that creative decision will or won't or would or wouldn't hurt sales.
 
Well, every reader is going to have some series they don't care about getting more books in (New Frontier, Vanguard, and Enterprise could disappear forever without my batting an eyelash), but that's not evidence that the line as a whole would do as well without those series. Nor is the fact that particular readers don't think the Voyager books have been good.

Almost no one who posts here knows enough about Trek book sales to use that data in arguments; those who do know enough are bound by confidentiality not to do so. It might be helpful to confine our opinions to, well, our opinions, without claiming that this or that creative decision will or won't or would or wouldn't hurt sales.

^ Now that's just CRAZY TALK!!!!!!!!!

Keeping our opinions confined to only our opinions of something. Madness pure and simple madness. Which leaves us with only one choice...

BURN THE HERETIC BRENDAN MOODY FOR DARING TO TELL US THAT WE SHOULD DO SENSABLE THINGS ON A TREK BOARD!!!!!!
 
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