Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[JD]

Lynx, if you're going to continue with Trek Lit, you really should check out the Vanguard books. There is quite a bit of death and destruction in the books, but IMO the series is of the best Treks in any form. Simply amazing stuff, especially the third book.

 

[Semah]

Liking a fictional character to the extent that you believe that the character should never die is naive. A wee bit.

That and caring about a fictional characters death based on whether you liked them or not.

So what?

Why did I start to read Star Trek books in the first place? Because I liked the characters I saw on the screen and wanted to read about them as well. What's the point of buying those books and reading them if those favorite characters are killed off in them?

And I do think that everyone here cares more for the Star Trek characters than for, let's say Mr. Smith in some not so known drama series. Of course the killing off of Janeway and Data or the destruction of Kes will affect viewers and readers among the Trek fans more than Mr. Smith's death in a TV series which you only watch occasionally or a book series in which you may only read one or two books.

You know, a wise man, in a fictional construct once said, "How you deal with death is as least as important as how you deal with life." I'm just gonna leave it at that.

 

[Lynx]

That and caring about a fictional characters death based on whether you liked them or not.

So what?

Why did I start to read Star Trek books in the first place? Because I liked the characters I saw on the screen and wanted to read about them as well. What's the point of buying those books and reading them if those favorite characters are killed off in them?

And I do think that everyone here cares more for the Star Trek characters than for, let's say Mr. Smith in some not so known drama series. Of course the killing off of Janeway and Data or the destruction of Kes will affect viewers and readers among the Trek fans more than Mr. Smith's death in a TV series which you only watch occasionally or a book series in which you may only read one or two books.

You know, a wise man, in a fictional construct once said, "How you deal with death is as least as important as how you deal with life." I'm just gonna leave it at that.

Well, I've had my fair share of deaths among friends and relatives. Too many of them have "left". Maybe that's the reason to my opinion in the Trek case.

Hartzilla 2007 wrote:

oh yeah I forgot about that though Lynx pretty much addmited to not giving a crap about characters the only exist in novels and chacters that are extras on the shows which is pretty much what the cast of SCE though the ex-extras who are now main chacters get pretty good character development I don't think it will bother him/her that much.

No, that's not the exact truth. You're interpreting my comments into something more rigid that they were meant to be and you're not the only one to do so.

There are characters which only exist in the novels I do care about, can care about or maybe learn to care about but you got to understand that characters like Data, Janeway and Kes are in a way more precious to me than some characters who may only exist in books (especially when the characters are replacements to beloved main characters). I mean, I've followed the adventures of those characters on screen for many years and it would be strange if I didn't got some affection for them after that.

But I do admit that I don't like when main characters are killed off.

This "Janeway incident" can also be regarded as the final straw in a row of similar events. After the destruction of Kirk, Kes and Data, I did expect that we would have had enough of that and that the books should be a more positive experience, we already have had a lot of main characters omitted from the books (something I'm not too fond of either) and replaced by characters which I don't find as interesting. Like I said, it's like those legendary rock bands who tour around the world with only one and two original members (and not the most prominent members either).

Then suddenly the main character of Voyager is killed off for no acceptable reason at all. That actually annoyed me. I did find it unnecessary and a bad move overall. And if Janeway is dropped, than anyone could be dropped. And who's next: Tuvok, Chakotay, Picard, Ro Laren, Quark?

I didn't like it, I still don't like it, I think it's another step in the wrong direction when it comes to Trek and I have expressed my feelings about it.

Christopher wrote:

That's not true. I'm a Janeway fan myself. But there are a couple of people hereabouts who express their Janeway fandom in a way that's rather aggressive toward opposing viewpoints, who act as though they speak for some vast militant horde whose disapproval will bring ruin to the book line rather than just expressing their own individual opinions, and who cross the line from civil discussion to attacks on other posters, the writers, the editors, etc. Those are inappropriate regardless of the character or idea they're used in support of.

If you don't know it, there is a debate going on several forums about Janeway's death in the book and there are many fans who are angry and upset about it. I don't think it's correct to dismiss them as a small minority either.

As for the debate here, I think it has been rather cordial so far. When it comes to attacks, I get the impression that the very few attacks which have occurred have been from those who support the killing off of Janeway against those who oppose it, comments about "unhealthy affections" and whatsoever.

 

[captcalhoun]

Lynx, if you're going to continue with Trek Lit, you really should check out the Vanguard books. There is quite a bit of death and destruction in the books, but IMO the series is of the best Treks in any form. Simply amazing stuff, especially the third book.

yeah, but he doesn't care about new characters who aren't from the shows...

 

[ronny]

If you don't know it, there is a debate going on several forums about Janeway's death in the book and there are many fans who are angry and upset about it. I don't think it's correct to dismiss them as a small minority either.

I popped over to the Voyager forum here, I don't care for the show myself so I don't tend to go there much (what am I going to post, that i don't like the show? sounds like trolling. anyway...), and not only is no one talking about Janeway dying, nobody is talking about the books at all. There's another ST board I know about and nobody seems to be talking about Janeway dying there either. Could you please provide some links to show there are lots of people annoyed about this? It just doesn't seem that way to me.

 

[Thrawn]

Marco had a great quote, something about how he wanted to publish books that everyone either loved or hated. I think killing a main character is the kind of decision that is ALWAYS going to piss off a great many people (Lynx clearly included), and that they took that into account when they made that decision, the idea being that the story for the people who weren't angry would be good enough that its power to them would be worth the anger of the inevitable "legions of scorned fans!"

And regardless of whether or not you think that was a good idea, I think that's the right editorial approach to take. Making a good, surprising, unexpected story is always going to have a few turns that anger someone; the only stories that don't anger someone are the bland, middle-of-the-road predictable ones that eventually get old and don't really live up to the potential of the setting.

Sure, maybe you think this was a bad idea. But that same approach gave us the decision to disregard previous continuity to tell the best story possible in the Crucible trilogy, which for the McCoy entry at least produced an all-time classic. That same approach led to Articles of the Federation, one of Treklit's greatest novels. That same approach led to Jaza's incredible journey in Sword Of Damocles. Not to mention all the amazing connections and threads that wove into Vanguard. And each of those stories pissed someone off; someone even emailed David Mack to inform him Vanguard violated everything Star Trek stood for.

I'd rather that they take chances, that they write stories that invoke strong reactions either way. The last thing I want Treklit to be is bland and predictable. Did they reach too far this time? I don't know - I haven't read Full Circle yet. But even if they did, I'd rather them be ambitious and overreach than be so worried about backlash from small groups of fans that nothing truly shocking, world-changing, or genuinely surprising ever happens.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Marco had a great quote, something about how he wanted to publish books that everyone either loved or hated.

Yep. Who wants a string of books that everyone agrees are merely okay, not world-beating, but safe, homogenous, and don't offend anybody. We had that in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

[Thrawn]

Marco had a great quote, something about how he wanted to publish books that everyone either loved or hated.

Yep. Who wants a string of books that everyone agrees are merely okay, not world-beating, but safe, homogenous, and don't offend anybody. We had that in the late 80s/early 90s.

Yeah, exactly. And from that era, I have a total of about 10 books still on my bookshelf. Whereas I think everything Marco edited is on the shelf, and there aren't more than 3 or 4 of those that weren't in some way outstanding (Crucible: Kirk, Lost Era: Deny Thy Father, Titan: Red King, String Theory: Evolution... and that's it. The rest were all awesome.)

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I agree that in general the Star Trek books have improved a lot compared to years ago. The main reason is the rich variety of stories we have nowadays. I enjoy the mix of “canon” characters with new ones very much. Also, I am a big fan of continuity.

But continuity, meaning a main thread within the Star Trek book universe, is more risky than the admittedly often more bland books of the past that were stuck with what was offered on TV and had no to very little room to manoeuvre anywhere that is more ambitious and adventurous. That means if I really hate a decision me as a reader I am stuck with it except if the writers and editors decided to undo it eventually.

It is good that Trek literature keeps pushing the boundaries but I also think some balance has to be kept. Freedom is good but what is Star Trek should be protected, too. I still think killing off Janeway crossed a line that should not have been crossed. I think main “canon” Star Trek characters that were not killed off on screen have a special status. Many fans buy the books because they want to read new adventures of the characters they met on TV.

As I keep saying, you can do a lot of bad things to characters without them being killed off for good. I never felt that way that because I am certain or reasonably certain that this character won`t die that the story is less touching, less thrilling, less interesting to me. I always felt that way that the journey is much more interesting than the destination. When I know that the character will survive, that he or she will get out of this mess I am looking forward to find out how.

My opinion is, leave the death stories involving main characters with the book only characters. “Wildfire” is brilliant. It is one of the strongest SCE stories and definitely one of the darkest Star Trek books. I didn`t enjoy it because that would be difficult keeping in mind the contents. But I can see the artistic value and it definitely gripped me and touched me. Having said that, I am glad that such stories are rare. First of all, it is no secret that I prefer it to have characters I care about alive than dead and second, it would diminish the impact of such stories if it happens more often than as an exception of the rule.

We had the pattern of characters dealing with the death of a character a few times. There is SCE, of course, there is Titan and Vanguard and even if Janeway would still be alive, there are plenty of possibilities looking at the events in Destiny. The pattern of people remembering the dead, their feeling of sadness and loss, the need to move on and find new paths, I don`t think this is so rare in Star Trek books as some people seem to believe. I certainly don`t think this topic needs special attention and I would be very surprised indeed if Janeway`s death is any different. Yes, of course especially Chakotay will be heartbroken. But I don`t expect anything “awesome” or “groundbreaking”. I expect something moving and touching. If Janeway`s life and career will be looked at through rose tinged glasses it will also be annoying to me. But will it be anything me as a reader has a reason to look forward to or be excited about? Speaking for myself, I doubt it. I am curious what “Full Circle” will be about but I would look forward to the book more if Janeway would still be alive, if she would actually be forced to face the consequences of her actions. Having her developed as an Admiral could have been groundbreaking. I very much doubt that this decision to kill her will provide that.

 

[kimc]

I guess I can see why you guys believe Janeway fans are in the minority - you do a pretty good job of chasing them off.

That's not true. I'm a Janeway fan myself. But there are a couple of people hereabouts who express their Janeway fandom in a way that's rather aggressive toward opposing viewpoints, who act as though they speak for some vast militant horde whose disapproval will bring ruin to the book line rather than just expressing their own individual opinions, and who cross the line from civil discussion to attacks on other posters, the writers, the editors, etc. Those are inappropriate regardless of the character or idea they're used in support of.

And nobody ever expressed the view that Janeway fans are in the minority -- merely that these two people who've said they'd boycott the books because of Janeway's death are wrong in assuming that the overwhelming majority of Trek book readers will follow suit.

Well maybe they're wrong but maybe they're right. That's usually the case in a difference of opinion. BTW, attacking other posters is called flaming and if that is happening the Trek Lit mods would take care of it. As for writers and editors isn't criticism a part of the profession no matter what kind of book you're writing?

 

[kimc]

Many fans buy the books because they want to read new adventures of the characters they met on TV.

You've hit the nail right on the head here. Trek books are different in that they are taking characters created by someone else. New characters are great and all but most Trek fans want to read about their favorites.

For stories featuring unique characters there are plenty of other options. For example I'm currently reading "Suite Francaise" by Irene Nemirovsky about Paris at the time of the Nazi invasion. (The author died a few years after writing the novel in a concentration camp). I'm just throwing that out an an option for a great book and to demonstrate that readers have lots of options. If a book came out featuring Janeway though I'd probably buy it.

 

[Sci]

BTW, attacking other posters is called flaming and if that is happening the Trek Lit mods would take care of it. As for writers and editors isn't criticism a part of the profession no matter what kind of book you're writing?

There's a difference between criticizing a creative decision and attacking the authors and editors whilst simultaneously advocating censorship, which is what Lynx was doing.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

BTW, attacking other posters is called flaming and if that is happening the Trek Lit mods would take care of it. As for writers and editors isn't criticism a part of the profession no matter what kind of book you're writing?

There's a difference between criticizing a creative decision and attacking the authors and editors whilst simultaneously advocating censorship, which is what Lynx was doing.

Not to mention that there is a fine line between stating an opinion and beating people over the head with it.

 

[Jean-Luc Picard]

I love Janeway, and she is one of my favourite characters from across the Trek universe. The manner in which she died was, in my opinion, pretty ridiculous and the entire situation seemed unnecessary. But it is fiction. And there are other characters that I enjoy and want to keep up with. Not to mention that the books since then have been fantastic - I understand being annoyed with Janeway's death, but at the same time, it seems a tad myopic to let the death of one character spoil a whole franchise.

 

[kimc]

BTW, attacking other posters is called flaming and if that is happening the Trek Lit mods would take care of it. As for writers and editors isn't criticism a part of the profession no matter what kind of book you're writing?

There's a difference between criticizing a creative decision and attacking the authors and editors whilst simultaneously advocating censorship, which is what Lynx was doing.

Again, those are all just opinions. You don't have to agree with them.

Not to mention that there is a fine line between stating an opinion and beating people over the head with it.

That's a matter of perspective. You're not obligated to read/respond. Being tolerant means sometimes you have to let things you don't agree with slide. If you're not willing to do that then you can't call yourself tolerant.

 

[Thrawn]

I am curious what “Full Circle” will be about but I would look forward to the book more if Janeway would still be alive, if she would actually be forced to face the consequences of her actions. Having her developed as an Admiral could have been groundbreaking. I very much doubt that this decision to kill her will provide that.

Not to be snippy, but posts like this have always annoyed me. How about... reading the book first, before you talk about all its missed opportunities? If nothing else, it has a full TWO YEARS OF TIME to develop Janeway as an admiral before she dies! Maybe what you want is IN the book. Or maybe the reactions to her death ARE more interesting than you expect.

I understand your hesitation, but judging the story before the story is written has always perplexed me.

No one disagrees that characters dying has a profound effect on other characters, and that one could tell stories with Janeway dead that one could never tell otherwise. This is a fact. The question is if those stories are worth the character's absence or not... and how can we possibly know that if we don't read the damn stories?!

 

[Sci]

There's a difference between criticizing a creative decision and attacking the authors and editors whilst simultaneously advocating censorship, which is what Lynx was doing.

Again, those are all just opinions. You don't have to agree with them.

Accusing the writers and editors of malice and unprofessionalism is not just an opinion, it's a personal attack, and one that earns attacks back. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

 

[LightningStorm]

There's a difference between criticizing a creative decision and attacking the authors and editors whilst simultaneously advocating censorship, which is what Lynx was doing.

Accusing the writers and editors of malice and unprofessionalism is not just an opinion, it's a personal attack, and one that earns attacks back. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Where exactly did this occur? I've been watching this thread fairly closely and while opinions and emotions have run high, I've only seen one personal attack and that was handled out of the thread and it wasn't directed at authors or editors.

 

[captcalhoun]

around the area where i made the comment that earned me a warning and a 24hr ban, which is why i said i found Lynx offensive. and believe you me, i was being bloody polite.

 

[Lynx]

There's a difference between criticizing a creative decision and attacking the authors and editors whilst simultaneously advocating censorship, which is what Lynx was doing.

Again, those are all just opinions. You don't have to agree with them.

Accusing the writers and editors of malice and unprofessionalism is not just an opinion, it's a personal attack, and one that earns attacks back. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

Huh!

Aren't you exaggerating now?

I have only expressed an opinion.

I think that killing off Janeway is wrong and the decision to do so was wrong. Am I not allowed to think that? As a fan of Janeway and the Voyager characters, I've also expressed my feelings in many posts in this thread, the reason why I react as I do when it comes to that subject.

What I can see, most of the debate here has been cordial, the insults I've seen so far has been aimed at me for having an "unhealthy obsession" or affection for the characters or ridiculing replies about "Janeway fans as a minority".

Jean-Luc Picard wrote:

I love Janeway, and she is one of my favourite characters from across the Trek universe. The manner in which she died was, in my opinion, pretty ridiculous and the entire situation seemed unnecessary. But it is fiction. And there are other characters that I enjoy and want to keep up with. Not to mention that the books since then have been fantastic - I understand being annoyed with Janeway's death, but at the same time, it seems a tad myopic to let the death of one character spoil a whole franchise.

I can see your point here. In fact, there are other characters that I enjoy too and would like to keep up with.

But to be honest, the Voyager crew has already been shattered to the winds. OK, Chakotay is on Voyager and Kim is there too. But Kes was ruined in the series and there seem to be no interest in bringing her back in a decent way without further character destruction, Neelix was dumped on an asteroid and no one wants to bring him back either, Tuvok has been transferred to Riker's ship (or was it Enterprise), Tom and B'Elanna are "married with children" (maybe they've changed their surnames to Bundy ) The Doctor and Seven are Barclay's laboratory pets. And if that wasn't enough, now Janeway is killed off. You can see why I think that "enough is enough".

I do find it hard to enjoy that scenario so forgive me if I rather re-read masterpieces like "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox or "Marooned" by Christie Golden.

When I first read "The Black Shore", I read it from the first page to the last without any break because it was so good and so incredible exciting. Those were the days!