Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Christopher]

Admiral Ross added a lot to DS9 and he definitely wasn't the typical "I'm a big dumbass" type Admiral character we so often see. Seems to me that something similar could have been done with Janeway.

Ross could function as a major supporting player in DS9 because of the stationary nature of that series; it stayed in one place, it dealt with ongoing events and their consequences, it explored ongoing decision-making at high levels in a war. That's conducive to doing a lot with a staff officer like an admiral, someone who sits at a desk on a starbase and makes high-level decisions.

A ship-based show is a different dynamic. You're not close to the seat of power. You're moving around, ideally exploring new territory, since this is ST. It's not as easy to fit an admiral into that format as a major character. Any attempt to do so would be contrived. As Keith said the other day, almost all TOS stories about Admiral Kirk have him acting more like a captain rather than doing the job of an admiral. And of course VGR has to be a ship-based show; it's right there in the name.

 

[Trent Roman]

Well, "Margaret feels her story's been told" <> "Shit, we're out of ideas," right?

The phraseology has admitedly degenerated over the last few pages, but the original objection remains that there were plenty of stories still to explore.

If that doesn't fit the criteria of "your policy," then I'll just have to learn to live with your disappointment.

A weighty burden indeed.

Sure, but how many future "Voyager" novels would a not-dumbass admiral sustain before it gets tedious?

We'll never know now (much like tootsie pops). Besides, it's not as though there's a plethora of VOY-R novels in the first place; even if there's only a handful of realistic ways to get Janeway involved (though I don't think that's the case), at this rate those should last for several years.

EDIT TO ADD:

And of course VGR has to be a ship-based show; it's right there in the name.

I don't agree with this either. One, it's no longer a show; the books could and should expand the scope. Two, Voyager was never about the ship, it was about the crew. They're the focal centers. Given the nature of the main cast, it's only to be expected that they would disperse once they got home, and it would involve far greater plot contrivances to get them all back aboard the ship (see, for instance, the nonsensical 'Paris as XO' thing from Spirit Walk). Unless Full Circle and Unworthy resolve this in a stroke of genius I cannot apprehend at the moment, any post-series Voyager series would have to necessarily have a multiplicity of focus for characters on and off the ship, or else radically alter the cast by pushing out everybody who can't fit the dictates of a 'ship-based' series.

...which, come to think of it, with Janeway dead, Tuvok on Titan and Seven teaching at the Academy as of Before Dishonour, might actually be what's happening.

EDIT THE SECOND: Then again, that really interesting notion Margaret mentioned in the interview of support ships--Voyager as part of a flotilla--could be said stroke of genius by expanding the expected functions of ship-based chronicles to that of a mobile community. Hmm...

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Dayton Ward]

The phraseology has admitedly degenerated over the last few pages,

I do what I can.

but the original objection remains that there were plenty of stories still to explore

I can't say that I disagree, and since I wasn't privvy to whatever discussions took place before this direction was chosen, I can't honestly say whether I'd have gone the same way. Maybe; maybe not. Would've depended on the case being made at that particular point in time with respect to what else was being considered so far as the future of Voyager characters and potential stories was concerned. That said -- and since I've yet to read anything having to do with Full Circle or Unworthy, I'm interested to see what happens now that they've chosen this course, and I have confidence in Kirsten to pull it off.

(This, coming from someone who's admitted ambivalence toward Voyager in the past.)

What I take issue with is this tiresome practice of proclaiming that because a decision was made with which "The Fans" disagree, it was due to a lack of imagination or will. Disagree with a decision as not being the one you would've gone with (I say "you" not to mean you personally, Trent, but those who invoke what "The Fans" want whenever they want to protest something), but at least acknowledge that due consideration was given before a choice was made.

 

[Daddy Todd]

Are you kidding? The first two A Time To books came out 5 years ago and people still bitch about those. Spirit Walk was also 5 years ago and are still bitched about. And then there's the canon: Nemesis: 6 years. These are the Voyages: 3 years. Tuvix was 12 years ago.

Well, I'm still mad as hell about something that happened in The Price of the Phoenix, so....

The fact that it was ever written...?

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Admiral Ross added a lot to DS9 and he definitely wasn't the typical "I'm a big dumbass" type Admiral character we so often see. Seems to me that something similar could have been done with Janeway.

Ross could function as a major supporting player in DS9 because of the stationary nature of that series; it stayed in one place, it dealt with ongoing events and their consequences, it explored ongoing decision-making at high levels in a war. That's conducive to doing a lot with a staff officer like an admiral, someone who sits at a desk on a starbase and makes high-level decisions.

A ship-based show is a different dynamic. You're not close to the seat of power. You're moving around, ideally exploring new territory, since this is ST. It's not as easy to fit an admiral into that format as a major character. Any attempt to do so would be contrived. As Keith said the other day, almost all TOS stories about Admiral Kirk have him acting more like a captain rather than doing the job of an admiral. And of course VGR has to be a ship-based show; it's right there in the name.

Is the definition of an Admiral`s job really to first of all stay in one place, usually a desk on a starbase?

Sisko (and later Kira) was the captain of a space station. He was the leader stationed on a stationary object but he certainly didn`t have a job just filled with paperwork and sitting on a desk. He dealt with all kinds of people and situations. He left the station for missions of various kinds. If Sisko would have been an Admiral on a station, like Shelby is now, would his job have changed in that regard? I hope to find out more in “Treason” but my guess is, no, the contrary: Being an Admiral will add another layer to it.

New Frontier was the first series breaking the ice about having relationships on board, including high ranking officers and also the captain. I hope PAD can be a pioneer again by continuing to break the stubborn prejudice about Admirals in Star Trek.

Yes, I haven`t read “Full Circle” and I will keep the argument in mind that Janeway`s death will have consequences. But I don`t think that the loss of Janeway would benefit Voyager and the Star Trek books more than keeping her around as an Admiral could have. Maybe I will change my mind when I read the book but at the moment, I doubt that very much.

I hope “Full Circle” is not about finding ways and excuses of all kinds to get all or the vast majority of the Voyager characters on one ship again and send them on various missions.

It is not surprising that nearly all TOS stories with Admiral Kirk have him acting like a captain. It was easier to write and this is what the audience expected.

I don`t get the logic that Voyager has to be a ship-based show. Yes, of course the starship Voyager should be part of it but first of all, the series was about the people on board, not the hardware.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don`t think that the loss of Janeway would benefit Voyager and the Star Trek books more than keeping her around as an Admiral could have.

Which one provides more discussion points, hype and angst?

Next book: Janeway dies!

For the next batch of books her crew react to the tragic death in various ways.

or

Next book: Janeway the admiral visits "Voyager"

For the next batch of books her crew react to yet more ploys to get the admiral into the action.

It's reminding me of the oft-scoffed-at attempts to put Worf in "First Contact", "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" because Michael Dorn was promised that the move to DS9 would not prevent him from doing the TNG movies.

 

[Christopher]

Is the definition of an Admiral`s job really to first of all stay in one place, usually a desk on a starbase?

Often, yes. In general, it is not an admiral's job to serve aboard a starship, except when commanding a specific mission. Voyager is, tautologically, a series about the starship Voyager. Having Janeway come along on every single mission Voyager got assigned would've gotten ridiculously contrived, and after a while people would be complaining about it and saying we should've had the guts to kill Janeway off instead of reducing her to such corniness.

No matter what decision was made, people would find things to complain about. That's because every option in life has its positives and negatives. There is no perfect choice. There are only choices. And once a choice has been made, there's really little point in dwelling on it and second-guessing it over and over again.

I don`t get the logic that Voyager has to be a ship-based show. Yes, of course the starship Voyager should be part of it but first of all, the series was about the people on board, not the hardware.

Voyager isn't the hardware, it's the setting. It's the scenario that defines it as a distinct series, just as Deep Space Nine is the setting that defines that show. If you're going to continue publishing a series called Voyager, then that has to be its primary setting. If you want to break up the characters and explore their separate lives in other contexts, then that's the end of the series entitled Voyager; you'd just be dividing the characters up among various series, as was done with Janeway and Seven in TNG and Tuvok in TTN.

And when we did that, people were complaining about how the VGR characters were being used in other series rather than in VGR stories. All you're doing is proving that there is absolutely nothing we can do in Trek fiction that won't spark complaints and "Aww, why couldn't you have done this instead?" posts from now till doomsday. The answer to "why didn't you do that?" ultimately boils down to "because we did this." One way or another, you have to make a choice, and then you have to make the best of it. No point looking back. Asking whether a choice should have been made differently is the wrong question. The right question is, what do you do next to make the best of the situation you've chosen?

 

[CommanderTroi]

Which one provides more discussion points, hype and angst?

The question for me here is, is this really what I want to read about in a Trek novel?
I certainly don't...okay, call me lame or naive, but I don't want to be depressed by a book because it has so much angst and violence and whatsoever in it, I want to be entertained, and being depressed is not what I had in mind for that...
I have to say, since I know that a great (?) deal of Full Circle is rumoured to be about how the rest Voyagers react to Janeway's death, it has lost nearly all of it's appeal to me. I just have the tiniest hope that Janeway will return in this novel so maybe I'll buy it (not that me buying this book or not means anything really), but story wise, VGR is over for me somehow, it's not beginning. So killing Janeway really killed the show in my eyes.

 

[Snaploud]

Is the definition of an Admiral`s job really to first of all stay in one place, usually a desk on a starbase?

Often, yes. In general, it is not an admiral's job to serve aboard a starship, except when commanding a specific mission.

I grant that it was in an alternate future, but here's an exchange between Geordi and Admiral Riker in "All Good Things" (Act 9):

GEORDI
The ship has held up pretty well over the years.

RIKER
They were going to decommission her about five years ago... but one nice thing about being an Admiral is getting to choose your own ship.

 

[KRAD]

New Frontier was the first series breaking the ice about having relationships on board, including high ranking officers and also the captain.

Sorry, no -- that would be Deep Space Nine.

 

[Christopher]

Often, yes. In general, it is not an admiral's job to serve aboard a starship, except when commanding a specific mission.

I grant that it was in an alternate future, but here's an exchange between Geordi and Admiral Riker in "All Good Things" (Act 9):

GEORDI
The ship has held up pretty well over the years.

RIKER
They were going to decommission her about five years ago... but one nice thing about being an Admiral is getting to choose your own ship.[/QUOTE]

Yes, an admiral can request a ship if he or she needs one for a particular mission, or can have a ship assigned to ferry him or her around on a regular basis. Neither of those is consistent with a series about the ongoing adventures of a starship doing something more interesting than chauffeur duty.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Often, yes. In general, it is not an admiral's job to serve aboard a starship, except when commanding a specific mission.

I grant that it was in an alternate future, but here's an exchange between Geordi and Admiral Riker in "All Good Things" (Act 9):

GEORDI
The ship has held up pretty well over the years.

RIKER
They were going to decommission her about five years ago... but one nice thing about being an Admiral is getting to choose your own ship.

Yes, an admiral can request a ship if he or she needs one for a particular mission, or can have a ship assigned to ferry him or her around on a regular basis. Neither of those is consistent with a series about the ongoing adventures of a starship doing something more interesting than chauffeur duty.[/quote]

Plus it was an alternate future, meaning that starfleet might not do that in the future just that they did in that particular future.

 

[Thrawn]

All you're doing is proving that there is absolutely nothing we can do in Trek fiction that won't spark complaints and "Aww, why couldn't you have done this instead?" posts from now till doomsday. The answer to "why didn't you do that?" ultimately boils down to "because we did this."

Well said.

 

[Lynx]

Was there a body? Did we SEE her die? David is famous for 'we all thought this person was dead' stories.

She definitely dies, we see her die, but that said the end is left somewhat ambiguous; Janeway talks to a female Q after she dies. However, the editors & the author of Full Circle have both stated explicitly that we aren't going to see Janeway coming back to life any time soon if ever, certainly not in Full Circle.

How can they just do that? Killing off a main character should be forbidden.

How will this affect other Star Trek books, like the Voyager Relaunch?

One thing is for sure, if this will affect future Star Trek books, then I will boycott them and stick to fan fiction instead, stories which are made by people who care about the characters.

Baerbel Haddrell wrote:

I hope “Full Circle” is not about finding ways and excuses of all kinds to get all or the vast majority of the Voyager characters on one ship again and send them on various missions.

Oh, I would love such a solution.

 

[Christopher]

How can they just do that? Killing off a main character should be forbidden.

You're seriously saying that?

First off, saying that anything should be "forbidden" in fiction is the kind of thinking that leads to limited, formulaic, unimaginative fiction. If something helps make a story better, it's foolish in the extreme to arbitrarily "forbid" it. It also carries a disturbing whiff of censorship.

How will this affect other Star Trek books, like the Voyager Relaunch?

To see how it affects Voyager now, read Full Circle. As for the other books, presumably the only impact it will have is that Captain Picard will be getting his orders from a different admiral now. But he was doing that before.

One thing is for sure, if this will affect future Star Trek books, then I will boycott them and stick to fan fiction instead, stories which are made by people who care about the characters.

Okay, you've sunk to a needlessly insulting level here, and you don't have a blasted clue what you're talking about. You can't seriously believe we'd do this for a living if we didn't care about the characters. And it's totally wrong to assume that the only reason an author would kill a character is out of contempt or dislike for that character. I've written death scenes that hurt me so much that I cried for half an hour afterward. It agonized me to kill those characters off, but I did it because it was what the stories needed. The goal of fiction is to evoke an emotional reaction in the audience. You want them to care about the characters, especially the ones who die, and you can't do that effectively if you don't care about them yourself.

 

[ronny]

Part of me thinks this is much ado about nothing. Who cares of Janeway is dead, I'm not a Voyager fan anyway. But another part of me thinks "what if they had decided to kill Garak in DS9R?". Now that would have been an outrage!!!!!

 

[Trent Roman]

Which one provides more discussion points, hype and angst?

Hype and angst? If that's what I wanted, I'd watch soap operas and reality TV. (Which isn't to suggest that Full Circle will resemble those in any way, just that hype and angst by themselves are pretty shallow and worthless.)

Voyager isn't the hardware, it's the setting. It's the scenario that defines it as a distinct series, just as Deep Space Nine is the setting that defines that show. If you're going to continue publishing a series called Voyager, then that has to be its primary setting.

I agree, but having a primary setting doesn't preclude exploring characters in other contexts. DS9 has had novels or novellas set on Bajor, on Cardassia, in the Klingon Empire and within the Dominion, on Andor and Trill and Ferenguinar. The space station is the focal point connection all these characters and locations, but it isn't the star of the series, nor is its presence necessary in all cases. I see no reason why a Voyager series would be incapable of handling multiple settings--after all, unlike Deep Space Nine, the ship itself is mobile.

Posted by Hartzilla2007:
Plus it was an alternate future, meaning that starfleet might not do that in the future just that they did in that particular future.

There's already precedent in the novels: Admiral Nechayev uses the Sovereign as her flagship.

The goal of fiction is to evoke an emotional reaction in the audience. You want them to care about the characters, especially the ones who die, and you can't do that effectively if you don't care about them yourself.

...as Before Dishonor demonstrated.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Marie1]

^ Perhaps... but given who he really is, not unjustifiable. Pretty well everyone in Trek is mortal, and the characters can't forget that.

I'm upset at the dead Jem'Hadar, an enslaved and brainwashed species who think that its incredible to live to be 20. Billions killed, the survivors live only for violence, drug requirements, at the mercy of Vorta... but the alternative is that maybe we wouldn't find the Vorta as horrid, the Dominion as dangerous, and needing to be stopped so much, it adds a layer of appreciation to the freedom the AQ species (well, most of them... poor Remans) have. But I still feel tremendous sadness whenever one dies. But, thats the good writing too. Fake peole we actually care about. Imagine! And it goes for most ST characters.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Killing off a main character should be forbidden.

A complaint about most series TV is that, when you know that actors have signed a five-year contract, it's highly unlikely to have someone permanently killed off. Some recent shows, such as "Lost", have been able to surprise us.

A complaint about tie-in fiction, especially for a current TV show, is that it usually has to return the status quo by the end of that book, be it relationships, births, deaths, hairstyles or career changes. Pocket ST has been able to break through that barrier more and more often since each show went of the air.

I will boycott them and stick to fan fiction instead, stories which are made by people who care about the characters.

As a former fanfic writer, editor and illustrator, one of the freedoms of fanfic is that people often kill off characters, and/or change the status quo in ways that a licensed tie-in could never be approved by the copyright owner to do. So, if your talking about fan story writers you can trust never to kill off a character (because they "care" about every character), you're looking at a much smaller pool of all fanfic.

Most authors really care about characters they kill off, but sometimes a story demands that someone is sacrificed.

 

[William Leisner]

How can they just do that? Killing off a main character should be forbidden. [...] One thing is for sure, if this will affect future Star Trek books, then I will boycott them and stick to fan fiction instead [...]

I find this an odd statement, since absolutely nothing is forbidden in fan fic -- and if there was, there would be no one with the authority to stop it.