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Janeway Died? In Which Book?
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It certainly wasn't going interesting places in the books so why read them?
^ I don't blame you for being disappointed. But Tuvok is around on Titan and the new Voyager book coming up soon will reveal what a lot of the others have been up to. Janeway is gone, and yeah she went out badly. It is a shame, but there are still good stories left to tell about the rest of the characters (at least I'm hoping that is the case).
I haven't read the book, seems like a waste to buy something that will make me angry.
And no, I'm not a super-fan of Janeway but I do like the character.
But if Janeway's death will be accepted as some sort of "book-canon" and therefore affect upcoming Star Trek books, no matter if it's TNG books, DS9 books, Voyager books, Titan books or New Frontier books, then I'm definitely through with all "official" Star Trek literature.
Why? Because I see it as the final straw in a long run of dissapointing character destruction (Kes, Kirk, Data, Janeway), I'm sick and tired of it and I don't want anything to do with it.
I've always liked the Star Trek books and when it comes to Voyager, I was hoping that some of the worst errors would be corrected in upcoming books. Now, when the opposite seem to be the result, then I will simply turn my back to it and probably to the whole enormous dissapointment that Star Trek has turned into.
If the latest fashion in Star Trek is to kill off and destroy beloved characters, then Star Trek should close the shop right now because the current policy will lead to a slow death for Star Trek anyway.
If I should be able to keep up any interest in Star Trek in the future, then I will stick to fan fiction and nothing else.
Of course, I will re-read my beloved Voyager books (volumes 1-15 plus "Mosaic", "Pathways", "Flashback" and "Her Klingon Soul") because those books are good and written when Star Trek still was fun and interesting.
I still have a feeling that angering the Janeway fans is a big mistake. They are many and they are very protective about their favorite. There was alot of commotion over some events in "Endgame" and there is a lot of protests already over the events in this book.
The "Voyager Relaunch" is in deep trouble already with bad reviews and lukewarm interest among the fans. Killing off Janeway might be the final straw.
^ In fact, the four Voyager post-finale books were huge sellers. It was never in any kind of trouble, nor anything remotely resembling trouble. The only reason there was such a long delay between books is because the editor responsible for the first four books left the company, the author who was writing the books was caught up in other projects (her own original fiction and various Blizzard Games books), and it took a while to decide on a new editorial direction.
I find it odd that you're condemning the books based primarily on the treatment of Kirk, Kes, and Data -- all of which happened on screen, and isn't the fault of the book editors.
I find it odd that you're condemning the books based primarily on the treatment of Kirk, Kes, and Data -- all of which happened on screen, and isn't the fault of the book editors.
Lynx - I really think that you are being unreasonable. I cannot understand how, in your mind, creative license should be limited to NOT killing off any main characters. In real life have persons you loved died? If not then you are too young yet to understand, but the fact is people do really die. How can Star Trek be "true" to humanity if nobody ever dies? And how can Star Trek make you feel the pain of death if only no name redshirts are the ones who bite the bullet? I'm sorry but your thinking is really flawed!
None of us would want our favorite character to die on screen or in a book but life is not a dream! And Star Trek should not portray things as such either. Sometimes people must make sacrifices for the greater good, and Janeway's sacrifice will ultimately prove to be for just that. She did not die in vain! Your whole reasoning does not allow for change or even growth, or risk.
Yes...it was risky killing Janeway. Was she a beloved character? Yes to some few she was but creative decisions have to be made sometimes to move a story forward and I personally think this was a good one.
If you decide to not buy anymore Star Trek books because of this then fine. You are only one and I think that if a scientific survey could be conducted you would be found to be in the minority. Not the minority of those who care whether Janeway is dead but the minority of those who willfully choose to abandon the Trek line when they still have viable and interesting stories to tell. Do what you think you have to but be assured that the MAJORITY of us are still standing with Pocket Books and willing to see where the ride will take us. We wish you would come along but if you won't then you won't. Nobody is forcing you to spend that $7.99 a month after all!
Kevin
None of us would want our favorite character to die on screen or in a book but life is not a dream! And Star Trek should not portray things as such either. Sometimes people must make sacrifices for the greater good, and Janeway's sacrifice will ultimately prove to be for just that. She did not die in vain! Your whole reasoning does not allow for change or even growth, or risk.
Yes...it was risky killing Janeway. Was she a beloved character? Yes to some few she was but creative decisions have to be made sometimes to move a story forward and I personally think this was a good one.
If you decide to not buy anymore Star Trek books because of this then fine. You are only one and I think that if a scientific survey could be conducted you would be found to be in the minority. Not the minority of those who care whether Janeway is dead but the minority of those who willfully choose to abandon the Trek line when they still have viable and interesting stories to tell. Do what you think you have to but be assured that the MAJORITY of us are still standing with Pocket Books and willing to see where the ride will take us. We wish you would come along but if you won't then you won't. Nobody is forcing you to spend that $7.99 a month after all!
Kevin
But it looks like the authors are simply continuing the character destruction by simply killing of another beloved main character.
And if that continues, I doubt that upcoming books will be "huge sellers". Who want to read Voyager books where half of the main characters are constantly missing?
And who will be the next in line for execution? Tuvok? Chakotay?
Yes, I've become unreasonable after too much dissapointment with Star Trek.
Yes, I've had enough of deaths of beloved ones among my friends and family, thank you.
No, I don't see the current annihilation of good characters as "creative" in any way, only destructive.
No, I don't think Star Trek has much of intersting stories to tell anymore with too many of the main characters gone or killed off.
To tell the truth, if I want to read a Voyager book for example, then I want to read about Janeway, Chakotay, Kes, Tuvok and the other main characters, not stories where half of them are missing and replaced by lame replacements.
And please don't describe annihilation of good character as some sort of"greater good" for the whole Star Trek. That expression makes me wanna puke.
And yes, I do think that there are more people than I who will definitely abandon the Star Trek books after this.
It suddenly struck me how sad this is. Recently I've been involved in debates on some other forums about if Star Trek books should be regarded as "canon". I've constantly stated that they should be because I did regard the stories in the books as the continuation of the ongoing Star trek saga. I have also expressed my affection for the books and stated that I did find the season 1-3 Voyager books better than many of the episodes.
And now I got all that showed down my throat. Thanks Star Trek for another big dissapointment!
What does it really matter if it serves the greater purpose? These characters are NOT supposed to be Gods you know and invincible! Rather than worrying about whether some character will be killed off you should concentrate on whether viable stories can be told with or without your precious characters. Sometimes a story can only be told by killing off a main character.
An example is one of my very favorite shows NCIS. At the end of last season they killed off the director of NCIS. I was shocked but following on this season I can see the story moving forward and it might have been a good decision to kill her off. Sad as that may be. Am I going to stop watching the show because of it? Hell no! It's a damn good show and worth watching.
I'd say the same for Star Trek books. Am I going to stop reading because they kill off a character I liked? Hell no! The books are damn good and worth reading! I want to see where they will take me next even if it is "painful". And THAT I believe is your real problem! You won't or are unwilling to face and deal with your pain and move forward, but Janeway would want you to!
Kevin
Well, NCIS is one of my favorite series as well.
OK, they killed off Jenny in that episode. Did I like it? Not really. But I must admit that I didn't consider her a main character in the same way as Gibbs or the others who have been there from the start. If they do kill off Gibbs, Abby, Ducky or Tony, then I'm out of there too.
As for Star Trek, I don't find any pleasure of reading books with many of the main characters missing, with possible references to their "sad death" or somerthing similar. And as I've stated before, if I read a Voyager book, then I want to read about Janeway, Tuvok, Chakotay, Kes and the others, not about Liutenant Rix, doctor Xox or ensign Jimmy.
Then I rather go for a new series with new characters.
Besides that, I rather re-read a masterpiece like "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox where all the good, old favorites are involved than wasting money on something that will only annoy me.
As a fan of the character Kes who is very dissapointed over the way the character was destroyed, there was a time long ago when I was hoping for and actually wishing for a decent Kes come-back in some upcoming book. But then I realized that it would be better if it didn't happen because it would only result in further damage of the character. So I did come to the conclusion that if I want to read a really good story with Kes involved, then I simply have to write it myself!
I guess that's the same for the other Voyager characters as well. In my stories, Janeway will be still alive.
I think that that it's extremely unfair to take the fact that they have on occasion killed main characters and to turn that into a giant pattern. Of the thirty-odd primary characters that have appeared in the Trek series, the novels have killed off exactly two, Dr. McCoy and Captain Janeway, and McCoy's death was only in the Crucible trilogy.
So what you're saying is, you want stories where the main characters never die and characters that we have an emotional connection with never really suffer. In other words, you want comfort food, not art.
Well, Janeway's dead, Seven, the Doctor, Kes, Neelix, and B'Elanna aren't part of the crew anymore, and Tuvok is a main character in Star Trek: Titan. But I for one am much more interested in and excited by Full Circle than I ever was for the TV show itself.
So, count me in as someone who wants to read VOY books where half the main characters are constantly missing!
If more than half of the characters are missing in a Voyager book, then it's no longer a Voyager book and shouldn't be referred to as a Voyager book either.
It's as pathetic as some legendary rock bands who are touring around the world with just one or two original members, sometimes not even that.
It's as pathetic as some legendary rock bands who are touring around the world with just one or two original members, sometimes not even that.
This is not about "Janeway dies"!. It is about "Janeway is dead". That does not cause any angst and at least to me no reason to hype. As on previous occasions, I am sure there will be some good speeches, people reflecting on her and her career, Chakotay will be heartbroken and there will probably also some rearranging of ranks and positions in coming Voyager books. Is that anything I have a special reason to look forward to? It doesn`t help that Janeway has managed to become one of my least popular main characters and that is quite a bad achievement keeping in mind that in spite of its weaknesses even at the beginning, I liked early Voyager also because I liked Janeway. I haven`t read the book yet and therefore I can only hope these passages won`t just look at Janeway through rose tinged glasses and show a balanced picture.
I am sure a lot will be interesting and moving. But I am also sure, the consequences will be short lived and lose these impacts pretty soon afterwards.
"The Admirals visits Voyager" could be much more exciting. You could also say is it exciting to say "The captain goes on a new mission"? It depends on the context, on the mission and on the reason why Janeway is visiting Voyager. It depends on how Janeway the Admiral could have developed. It depends on who might have worked with Janeway at that point, who might have accompanied her. I see so many more possibilities here than consequences of "Janeway is dead".
But, as I keep saying, of course I have to wait and see.
Hmm.
Let's see.
During its run, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine consisted of the following principal characters:
* Benjamin Sisko
* Jake Sisko
* Odo
* Jadzia Dax
* Ezri Dax
* Worf, Son of Mogh
* Julian Bashir
* Miles O'Brien
* Quark
* Kira Nerys
Of these, the following characters have been absent from the majority of post-finale DS9 novels:
* Odo
* Jadzia Dax
* Worf, Son of Mogh
* Miles O'Brien
* Benjamin Sisko
* Jake Sisko
6 out of the original ten have not been in most DS9 Relaunch novels. Even if we eliminate Jadzia from consideration, that brings us to 5 of the original nine. That's a full 55.55% of the original DS9 cast that has not been featured in most DS9 Relaunch novels (Sisko being absent until Unity, Jake absent from Section 31: Abyss until Rising Son, Worf appearing only in The Left Hand of Destiny, Books I & II and cameoing in Unity, O'Brien appearing only in Unity and Cardassia: The Lotus Flower, Odo appearing only in Rising Son, Unity, and The Dominion: Olympus Descending).
I say this without having yet read Fearful Symmetry, I should note.
Most were replaced by new characters or familiar recurring characters given new positions, including Elias Vaughn, Prynn Tenmei, Thrithishar "Shar" ch'Thane, Nog, Akellen Macet, Taran'atar, and Ro Laren.
Guess what? It's still Deep Space Nine, and its sales haven't suffered.
During TNG, the main cast consisted of:
* Jean-Luc Picard
* William T. Riker
* Geordi LaForge
* Worf, Son of Mogh
* Beverly Crusher
* Deanna Troi
* Data
* Wesley Crusher
* Natasha Yar
Excluding Yar and Crusher, who left during the run before TNG's "Golden Age" (Seasons Four through Seven), however, the following characters are no longer featured in post-NEM TNG novels:
* William T. Riker
* Deanna Troi
* Data
So, 3 out of the 7 most well-known TNG characters -- a full 42.85% of the "classic" TNG cast -- are not in the post-NEM TNG novels. They've been replaced by characters including Miranda Kadohata, Dina Elfiki, Jasminder Choudhury, T'Ryssa Chen, T'Lana, and Zelik Leybenzon.
Guess what? It's still The Next Generation, and, from what I know, sales are still good.
To some degree, maybe. Maybe I should have been clearer and write intimate relationship also between high ranking officers. To me at least, New Frontier was the pioneer here.
SCI wrote:
Please see my comments about bogus legendary rock bands in my previous post.
As for most of the new characters who have been introduced to fill the vacant space of the real main characters, I find them as interesting as last weeks lettuce.
OK, I understand if some of you will find my opinion in this case harsh and non-compromizing and I also understand that some of you will strongly disagree with me. But this is how I feel after ten years of dissapointments considering the treatment of certain main characters. I guess that the "death" of Janeway is the final straw for me when it comes to Star Trek, at least the official part of it.
The sad thing is that Star Trek has been an essential part of my life for such a long time that it will be difficult to replace that interest with something else.
And I will actually miss the books. They used to be good once upon a time. I would really hope that they would re-release the older books. It's not that fun chasing after them on Ebay.
However, Star Trek has learned me some important lessons when it comes to interests and fandom:
1) Don't get too involved. Don't start to like certain things too much because someone will screw it up sooner or later.
2) If that happens, turn your back to your former interest because it will never be the same.
3) Find something else to spend your time on but just keep a casual interest in the whole thing. Then it will be easier to abandon when someone screws it up.
^^
Please see my comments about bogus legendary rock bands in my previous post.
As for most of the new characters who have been introduced to fill the vacant space of the real main characters, I find them as interesting as last weeks lettuce.
OK, I understand if some of you will find my opinion in this case harsh and non-compromizing and I also understand that some of you will strongly disagree with me. But this is how I feel after ten years of dissapointments considering the treatment of certain main characters. I guess that the "death" of Janeway is the final straw for me when it comes to Star Trek, at least the official part of it.
The sad thing is that Star Trek has been an essential part of my life for such a long time that it will be difficult to replace that interest with something else.
And I will actually miss the books. They used to be good once upon a time. I would really hope that they would re-release the older books. It's not that fun chasing after them on Ebay.
However, Star Trek has learned me some important lessons when it comes to interests and fandom:
1) Don't get too involved. Don't start to like certain things too much because someone will screw it up sooner or later.
2) If that happens, turn your back to your former interest because it will never be the same.
3) Find something else to spend your time on but just keep a casual interest in the whole thing. Then it will be easier to abandon when someone screws it up.
I think that is a very unfair remark. Only because there are people who are not in favour of the idea of killing off main characters doesn`t mean they are in favour of the extreme you are describing.
I belong to the fans too who are very much against the idea of killing off main "canon" characters for reasons I have explained quite a few times. But at the same time I also said that this never means I don`t want to see my favourite characters in dangerous situations, see him or her suffer and have to deal with really bad things. I like well written conflict and also the darker side of character stories. My point is, I prefer it to see also my favourite characters survive a situation even if it leaves the character traumatized, injured or in other ways very badly affected. I can form very strong bonds with fictional characters and seeing how that person deals with the consequences, how it affects family, friends and colleagues, how it affects his or her career, that is interesting to me, that is what I care about and what I want to read.
I prefer this to short lived, even if it is extremely well written, stories about the death of a character I very much care about.
Yes, nobody has to tell me that life is unfair, that people die in reality. But if I want pure reality, I watch the news. I want a good balance in Star Trek books and - yes, I am selfish here, but I spend my money and time reading them - I want to meet my favourite characters again in book form and I am not talking about flashback stories, mirror universe and other twists and turns.
I am not a Janeway fan and therefore on a personal level, I have no problem with her death. I certainly would be very upset if PAD would kill off Calhoun for good, though. From the logical standpoint, I still don`t think Janeway`s death was a good idea also because I know how I feel about my favourite characters.
???
Therin of Andor:
"Adventures of Superman" repeats in the 60s; still there for all incarnations and still there for "Superman Returns"
"Batman" in 1968; still there for all incarnations and still there for "The Dark Knight"
"ST:TMP in December 1979; still there for all incarnations and awaiting JJ's ST in 2009.
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A bullshit critique. If anything, I happen to think that the DS9 and TNG Relaunches improve upon the actual shows. Looking back, it's my strong opinion that novels like Greater Than the Sum and the Destiny trilogy, and that most of the DS9 Relaunch, are of higher-quality writing than the TNG and DS9 shows themselves.
I, on the other hand, find characters like Vaughn, Prynn, Shar, Jasminder, and Miranda to be some of the most interesting Trek characters ever created, and significantly more interesting than the canonical incarnations of characters as, say, Jake Sisko or Deanna Troi.
As far as I'm concerned, this is the Golden Age of Trek Literature, and it's a vast improvement over the era when TrekLit consisted of nothing more than planet-of-the-week-style adventures that only ever featured the same canonical characters behaving exactly as predicted with no real hope of change or evolution or death in them. And, yes, I count the possibility of death as a good thing. Why?
Because most of these stories are action stories. They're predicated upon the threat of imminent death. But if we know that there is never any possibility of the characters dying, then that undercuts the foundation of the stories' dramatic tension.
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