Janeway "Deserved" To Die? (Spoilers?)

[JB2005]

Now I'm not a Janeway hater, and I think I should make that clear from the get-go. But the more I thought about Endgame, the more I thought, was there some kind of Karmic thing going on, whereby by the universe demanded that she should die because of her monkeying around with the timeline.

She destroyed 23 years of the future, therefore she had to pay some kind of price for this (and here the price was her life)

However on the other hand, the future is not written in stone, and so she was monkeying around with a timeline that had not happened yet, therefore there is no reason to demand any punishment.

But then again, she was using future technology, ostensibly to stop the future that was helping her from ever existing. Therefore she was saying that the future wasn't good enough for her, but she was still prepared to use it for her own ends.

However, back to the flip side, it was Admiral Janeway who provided the means for the aforementioned mokeying, and Captain Janeway therefore can't be blamed for what hasn't happened yet.

But then back again, Admiral Janeway recognised the dangers of trying to get Voyager home that way, and she was prepared to accompany Janeway back through to the AQ. It was Captain Janeway who wanted to

Have our cake and eat it to

so in fact the blame shifts back to Captain Janeway.

So consequentially Janeway's death was some kind of universal balancing act. Which Q-ette then said "the hell with" and saved her anyway.

Any thoughts?

 

[Praetor]

I have a hard time arguing with your logic.

 

[Octavia]

I tend to think that in Admiral Janeway's future, Tuvok wasn't the only one who needed time in the psych ward.

And I say that with love.

But think about it: decades of being the person responsible, without ever a single break, always having to stifle your emotions so the crew doesn't see you terrified or miserable and take their cue from that, seeing your family picked off one by one and feeling like it's your fault, endless amounts of guilt, loneliness etc... To me, Adm. Janeway has some pretty massive trauma that in some way goes to explaining her actions.

It's like her whole experience of right and wrong has been warped by Voyager, until she can only see and focus on one thing. I think also that Captain Janeway was beginning to crack under the strain as well... the early version of her older self (see Night, Equinox, etc). Now while this doesn't excuse her, it does make me more sympathetic. Mitigating circumstances, as it were: a diminished responsibility that makes her seem less culpable to me.

I have less sympathy for the senior staff who went along with it. They aren't under the same pressure, so could see more clearly, IMO - and they have a duty to resist unlawful orders.

 

[JB2005]

I tend to think that in Admiral Janeway's future, Tuvok wasn't the only one who needed time in the psych ward.

And I say that with love.

But think about it: decades of being the person responsible, without ever a single break, always having to stifle your emotions so the crew doesn't see you terrified or miserable and take their cue from that, seeing your family picked off one by one and feeling like it's your fault, endless amounts of guilt, loneliness etc... To me, Adm. Janeway has some pretty massive trauma that in some way goes to explaining her actions.

Hmm, I hadn't considered this, but now that I think on it, you may have a point there. Certainly you could see this in Endgame and the fact that she wanted to change the history was based on her desire to reunite her family. I tend to think of it as selfishness, but there is definately the argument that she did it out of love for them

It's like her whole experience of right and wrong has been warped by Voyager, until she can only see and focus on one thing. I think also that Captain Janeway was beginning to crack under the strain as well... the early version of her older self (see Night, Equinox, etc). Now while this doesn't excuse her, it does make me more sympathetic. Mitigating circumstances, as it were: a diminished responsibility that makes her seem less culpable to me.

Again I agree, starting with Night I thought we were going to get a Janeway more determined to get Voyager home and damn everything, because of her guilt. Of course this cropped up sporadically, so that was disappointing.

I have less sympathy for the senior staff who went along with it. They aren't under the same pressure, so could see more clearly, IMO - and they have a duty to resist unlawful orders.

Agreed, after all that jazz "to the journey" etc...nah the hell with that, going home is more important. So that annoyed me.

But ultimately despite all the that, I have to say I'm not convinced that Janeway was in the wrong. From the point of view of the show we can sympathise with her. But she's not just altering her crew's lives.

Potentially the entire galaxy was affected to one degree or another. She had taken an oath to above all preserve the Federation, and while I can sympathise with her point of view, it is indefensible. If everytime a red-shirt had died on Kirk's Enterprise he'd monkeyed with the time-line to save them, then it's likely Sombrero-prise would be a reality!

It's like Geordi La-Forge will never now say "I've got my own crew to protect, to say nothing of fifteen years of history""If you do this, countless lives will be affected." Voyager monkeyed around with the timeline not for the greater good, but for their own personal good. The needs of the many...

 

[Praetor]

It's like "Endgame" happened upon the right message (the realization on the crew's part that the journey and their existence as a family was what was more important) but didn't know how to execute it. And, don't get me started on how the concept of the ship as a family was mishandled repeatedly.

Had crazy Admiral Janeway gone along with Captain Janeway's plan, then made a deal with the Borg to tow Voyager home as she appeared to do, then died for her wrongs (blowing herself up to destroy the Borg because she realizes what she's done, or something like that) that would have worked better to achieve the same ending without character assassinating Captain Janeway, IMO.

 

[Brit]

The assumption being made with this argument is that the future Admiral Janeway changed was a wonderful future. For all we know the change saved millions of lives because she destroyed the Borg. So just maybe she actually deserves eternal gratitude for what she did.

I think that the label of “crazy” is more wishful thinking on some fans part.
Admiral Janeway changed time, it was a deliberate act but that doesn’t mean it was a self-centered act but rather for reasons we saw and probably a lot we didn’t, an act of love.

How do we know she changed anything at all, but rather simply slipped over into another time line much like Spock Prime in the new movie?

Where was the Temporal Integrity Commission? That in its self suggests that “Endgame” Admiral Janeway’s time line was somehow wrong in the first place.

Should Janeway have died for her actions, absolutely and positively NO!

I love the Character of Captain Kathryn Janeway and I want her very much alive. Is this an unbiased opinion, no.

Actually your argument is a paradox, if time shouldn't be changed then you are saying the fates, or the deity of you choice has ordained things to be a certain way. If that is true then no one would have to ability to go back in time or change anything in the first place.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

They killed Tuvix. It's a shame karma only annihilated one of them.

Do you ever wonder if it had been seven of nine who died if one of the Janeways or Chakotay would have gone back into the guts of Endgame to rescue her?

 

[Praetor]

The assumption being made with this argument is that the future Admiral Janeway changed was a wonderful future. For all we know the change saved millions of lives because she destroyed the Borg. So just maybe she actually deserves eternal gratitude for what she did.

I think that the label of “crazy” is more wishful thinking on some fans part.
Admiral Janeway changed time, it was a deliberate act but that doesn’t mean it was a self-centered act but rather for reasons we saw and probably a lot we didn’t, an act of love.

No matter what her reasons were, and no matter how awful the future that the Admiral altered was, changing the timeline for selfish reasons was principally wrong. Period.

How do we know she changed anything at all, but rather simply slipped over into another time line much like Spock Prime in the new movie?

We don't. In that case, all Admiral Janeway did was create an alternate reality where the crew got home earlier, which didn't really help anyone in her own timeline.

Where was the Temporal Integrity Commission? That in its self suggests that “Endgame” Admiral Janeway’s time line was somehow wrong in the first place.

Or, that Admiral Janeway's actions were part of a predestination paradox, and that Admiral Janeway's future amounts to no more than the altered future of "City on the Edge of Forever" or "All Good Things:" temporary aberrations meant for self-correction.

I still insist that Captain Janeway made a wrong and out-of-character choice in going along with Admiral Janeway.

Should Janeway have died for her actions, absolutely and positively NO!

I love the Character of Captain Kathryn Janeway and I want her very much alive. Is this an unbiased opinion, no.

I like her, too, and didn't want her to die, but the question is whether Janeway's death was a karmic balancing act or not, not whether she should have died at all. The idea of karmic balance in storytelling is quite an old one, and is quite old to Trek too. Spock had to die to save the Enterprise karmically in TWOK and Kirk's son and the Enterprise had to die to resurrect Spock.

Actually your argument is a paradox, if time shouldn't be changed then you are saying the fates, or the deity of you choice has ordained things to be a certain way. If that is true then no one would have to ability to go back in time or change anything in the first place.

The concept of universal balance doesn't necessarily require a literal deity or fate to work. There are certain natural laws of science, ignoring any spiritual aspects, that dictate that nature itself often seeks a balance.

Besides, we know we can time travel in the Trekverse.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Um. It's a spurious assumption to think that ALL Borg were destroyed in Endgame just because the(/a?) Queen fell to pieces.

kathy just blew up a bus terminal.

If killing the queen would have destroyed the Borg completely then really, in dark Frontier, that was selfish to let the Borg Queen live just because a couple humans would have been caught in the blast radius considering the billion and billions of "people" yet to be and still being assimilated in the comiing months before Endgame?

The Borg have dealt with infection before with Hugh and Icheb. They have measures.

 

[JB2005]

The assumption being made with this argument is that the future Admiral Janeway changed was a wonderful future. For all we know the change saved millions of lives because she destroyed the Borg. So just maybe she actually deserves eternal gratitude for what she did.

But by accepting that Janeway died, then we accept the novel continuity that she didn't destroy the borg.

I think that the label of “crazy” is more wishful thinking on some fans part.
Admiral Janeway changed time, it was a deliberate act but that doesn’t mean it was a self-centered act but rather for reasons we saw and probably a lot we didn’t, an act of love.

Well if she wasn't crazy then it becomes a malicious act, because she was altering the destiny of countless numbers of people, to save the lives of 22 people and the sanity of 1 vulcan. Hardly worth it, in the grand cosmic scale.

Also the possibility has been discussed, that in fact the events of Endgame, caused the events of Destiny (by making the borg realise how much of a threat humanity was.)

How do we know she changed anything at all, but rather simply slipped over into another time line much like Spock Prime in the new movie?

Oh Trek XI, how you've complicated things!

Because Janeway was setting out specifically to change history, not to create a parallel timeline. So it was the writer's intent that there was one timeline, which was changed by Adm. Janeway.

Where was the Temporal Integrity Commission? That in its self suggests that “Endgame” Admiral Janeway’s time line was somehow wrong in the first place.

Don't get me started! How many times have there been time travel paradoxes and the Temporal Integrity Commission hasn't gotten involved. I would say simply because they were a useful plot device, from time to time. And leave it at that.

Should Janeway have died for her actions, absolutely and positively NO!

I love the Character of Captain Kathryn Janeway and I want her very much alive. Is this an unbiased opinion, no.

Yes but as has been pointed out above this is simply a question on whether there was a karmic balance required for Janeway's death. I also wish that she was still alive and leading Voyager. But if she's not then I'm willing to see where the authors take Voyager, and make my own mind up ad hoc

Actually your argument is a paradox, if time shouldn't be changed then you are saying the fates, or the deity of you choice has ordained things to be a certain way. If that is true then no one would have to ability to go back in time or change anything in the first place.

Well all of Endgame is a paradox. The second Admiral Janeway prevents Voyager from continuing on its journey, she should cease to exist along with the futuristic technology. But if there is some kind of balance in the Trek Universe (not unprecedented) then it might be that the price for keeping the tech as well as getting home was the death of the Janeways.

 

[Tachyon]

LOL @ "karmic balance".

Geez...

 

[Brit]

JB225 left out the one point that cannot be argued with, and that is whether you believe she destroyed the Borg are not - and I do because I don't buy the books, I don't think their take on the Borg is right, the books are as riddled with non continuity as you say Voyager is. - you have no proof that the time line "Admiral Janeway" changed was better than the time line after she changed it.

You are assuming that she destroyed and it's just that an "assumption", she could have by the one act made things much, much better. Admiral Janeway could just as easily been the "hero" that saved the Federation, by taking out the Borg. She could have been the "hero" of the federation because she brought a gifted engineer "B'Elanna Torres" back in time to give the federation new technology that could have saved them. Perhaps a sane Tuvok, would have did something that changed lives for the better. YOU DON"T KNOW.

Janeway deserves life, she deserves happiness and she deserves a whole lot more than your "karma".

Brit

 

[john titor]

Janeway was a tool, she was like the eric cartman of star trek minus the charisma, you're right, she deserved it.

 

[KimMH]

No she did not. That is my initial knee jerk reaction. I'm not sure I can offer you balanced well reasoned argument why - but what about all the other people who altered so-called original time lines by their actions? If every supposed timeline in existence is valid and can splinter off into as many timelines as focal points exist then Janeway did not destry 23 years of history - she created another thread of a time web. This web is much more resilient than one might think if it and sometimes the lines will intersect but if you are beginning with the premise that all these timelines exist time itself must be much stronger and more elastic - fluid - than we understand it to be.

As for a karmic balance being required; what of all the lives the Borg have destroyed? Where is the reciprocal response to their actions? If you subscribe to the idea "A Singular Destiny" posits (great book) then the Borg are not destroyed and are actually rewarded for their longsuffering as slaves of the Borg queen.

Powerful a personality as Janeway is I think too much power has been assigned her on the cosmic scale. Is this because of Q's notice of her? Does that make her in our minds the locus of this giant temporal/karmic crossroads? I think she was a wonderful, strong but occasionally conflicted person who was after all, only human who met a tragic end. By tragic I mean in the classical sense where one decision she makes lead to her end. She chooses to go the the Borg cube to pay homage to all she and the UFP have lost to this seeemingly implacable foe and is destroyed by Borg's apparently new inclination toward duplicity. They are no longer charging into the fray they've now learned to hide in the shadows and strike when least expected. This makes them even more formidable and makes Janeway's triumphs over them - while shortlived - all the more impressive.

 

[Frazzled]

If Janeway deserved to die, so then must Kim and Chakotay for their actions in 'Timeless'.

So arguably do Picard and his crew for First Contact - I say arguably because the Borg changed things, they just changed them back, but how do they know the Borg way isn't the way it's meant to be? With the events as described briefly in Full Circle, I haven't read Destiny so don't understand it fully, I assume everyone on Earth would've eventually become part of the perfect Caeliar and be very happy indeed?

So do Kirk and his Crew for The Voyager Home. Oh I suppose he did die, but not for a while he did plenty inbetween including hanging around in the Nexus for 70 years.....

Every time anyone in any trek changed the time line, and it happens more than I've listed above, it could be argued that they're responsible for everything bad that follows. Janeway I feel is being singled out here....

 

[kimc]

If Janeway deserved to die, so then must Kim and Chakotay for their actions in 'Timeless'.

So arguably do Picard and his crew for First Contact - I say arguably because the Borg changed things, they just changed them back, but how do they know the Borg way isn't the way it's meant to be? With the events as described briefly in Full Circle, I haven't read Destiny so don't understand it fully, I assume everyone on Earth would've eventually become part of the perfect Caeliar and be very happy indeed?

So do Kirk and his Crew for The Voyager Home. Oh I suppose he did die, but not for a while he did plenty inbetween including hanging around in the Nexus for 70 years.....

Every time anyone in any trek changed the time line, and it happens more than I've listed above, it could be argued that they're responsible for everything bad that follows. Janeway I feel is being singled out here....

I agree. Besides, the timeline was changed once the older Janeway went back to the Delta quadrant and if you want to see karmic comeuppance then she got it on that borg cube. The younger Janeway just went with the hand she was dealt with and like any good Starfleet captain played it to the advantage of her crew.

 

[Praetor]

As much as I'm sorry Janeway was killed off in the books and believe it to be a statement/stunt to get people interested in the books, I, personally, really have a problem with trying to defend Captain Janeway's willingness to go along with the Admiral in "Endgame." I really do.

That's pretty much the single sticking point for me that causes me to see what happened to Janeway in the books as a kind of comeuppance, rather than simply an arbitrary choice on the part of the book writers. I think it was a contrived violation of the character on the part of the show writers so they could come up with a way to wrap up the episode and get the ship home.

Janeway's whole shtick from "Caretaker" was pretty much her adherence to Starfleet principles, and she threw the whole thing out the window when the writers found it convenient.

I'd be happy to listen to the argument that the Captain's willingness to go with the Admiral somehow represents a change in her character, though. But I simply don't think that was how it was portrayed.

 

[Frazzled]

As much as I'm sorry Janeway was killed off in the books and believe it to be a statement/stunt to get people interested in the books, I, personally, really have a problem with trying to defend Captain Janeway's willingness to go along with the Admiral in "Endgame." I really do.

I would agree. It doesn't sit easily with me at all, I'd prefer to wipe out endgame if I could alter the timeline

I just don't think it's fair to single her out as uniquely bad because of it, and say that it's some Karmic consequence. Other Captains and other lower ranking officers have done as bad or worse.

 

[Praetor]

Oh, I'll definitely concede that others have gotten away with similar, if not worse.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I just don't think it's fair to single her out as uniquely bad because of it, and say that it's some Karmic consequence. Other Captains and other lower ranking officers have done as bad or worse.

SHE CUT A CREWMAN IN HALF!



How much trouble do you think Kirk would have got into if McCoy wanted to keep Spocks marbles back in Star Trek III, so he'd ordered an extraction? Then T'Pau wasn't entirely gentle trying to get Surak out of Archer.

The description of the local politics in Admiral Janeways Future during Endgame said that the Borg did exist, but that they were not much of an extinction level threat no more. Odd that one ship could destroy the Borg in the past, but the entire federation couldn't in the Future?

And the Borg vessels chasing Voyager through the conduit well after the death of the Queen? they figured out how to survive her death and the rest f the Borg all across the cosmos might have stood as good a chance as that considering they were not dependant on that lady, no?