Janeway and Chakotay

[Guy Gardener]

Very painful, but true.

What if Kate and Jennifer switched characters?

20 year old Lieutenant Kippy Janeway is promoted Captain after all her superiors die in transit to the Delta Quadrant.

Mulgrew plays a one year old alien with $ucked up ears and a 9 year young life expectancy.

 

[Oddish]

That would be... sort of interesting, actually.

Since Mulgrew was 39 when the show started, she could be 3-4 years in, so she'd pass shortly before the end.

 

[MarkusTay]

Now you just made me have a thought (thats dangerous!)

So what if Kes was Kes, but it was her that Paris kidnapped for some slimey fun? Would Kes have evolved into a god-like entity? That could have possibly gotten them all home quicker, or gotten Voyager destroyed.

And now I just had another thought... (two in one day!)_
What if it had been Chakotay that tested the Delta Flyer and kidnapped Janeway (which would have made more sense). Would he have been so quick to abandon his own children on some distant planet? He seemed to be all about saving his kid from Seska even when he didn't really have one, but Tom's babies with Janeway? Just kick them into the mud and pretend they never existed. Had it been Chakotay, we would have seen a terrarium in his room, with him talking to 'his babies' for the rest of the show.

 

[Oddish]

But it was Chakotay's idea to leave the little salamanders behind. Seems a bit OOC, given his own attitude regarding his supposed offspring with Seska.

Another of many reasons to declare that "Theshold" did not actually happen. It was a bad dream by Paris, following a triple helping of Neelix's leola root casserole.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Now you just made me have a thought (thats dangerous!)

So what if Kes was Kes, but it was her that Paris kidnapped for some slimey fun? Would Kes have evolved into a god-like entity? That could have possibly gotten them all home quicker, or gotten Voyager destroyed.

And now I just had another thought... (two in one day!)_
What if it had been Chakotay that tested the Delta Flyer and kidnapped Janeway (which would have made more sense). Would he have been so quick to abandon his own children on some distant planet? He seemed to be all about saving his kid from Seska even when he didn't really have one, but Tom's babies with Janeway? Just kick them into the mud and pretend they never existed. Had it been Chakotay, we would have seen a terrarium in his room, with him talking to 'his babies' for the rest of the show.

Mythologically it was Paris who stole "Helen of Troy", so that tracks.

 

[Dee1891]

Even when she's punching way, WAY above her weight.

As an example, that huge Borg transwarp conduit in "Endgame"... Janeway should not have been able to destroy it or even use it her first time around, because it was undoubtedly guarded by a buttload of tactical Borg cubes, even one of which would turn Voyager into floating debris in three seconds no matter how many photon torpedoes she was able to shoot.

I'm sorry, but didn't Admiral Janeway managed to infect the Borg Collective with a pathogen, when she was "assimilated" by the Borg Queen? By introducing the virus into the Queen, didn't Admiral Janeway also infect the Collective, leading to a cascade failure of the Unicomplex and destruction? I suspect that last Borg sphere had already been weakened by the Admiral's pathogen, allowing Captain Janeway and Voyager to destroy it from the inside. Since the transwarp conduit had been created by Borg, surely it would have been affected by the destruction of the Borg Queen and the Unicomplex.

Another of many reasons to declare that "Theshold" did not actually happen. It was a bad dream by Paris, following a triple helping of Neelix's leola root casserole.

"Threshold" is not "Spock's Brain", "The Emperor's New Cloak" or "These Are the Voyages...". And for that, I am truly grateful.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm sorry, but didn't Admiral Janeway managed to infect the Borg Collective with a pathogen, when she was "assimilated" by the Borg Queen? By introducing the virus into the Queen, didn't Admiral Janeway also infect the Collective, leading to a cascade failure of the Unicomplex and destruction? I suspect that last Borg sphere had already been weakened by the Admiral's pathogen, allowing Captain Janeway and Voyager to destroy it from the inside. Since the transwarp conduit had been created by Borg, surely it would have been affected by the destruction of the Borg Queen and the Unicomplex.

Actually the original intent of the writers was that Virus infected every Borg in the Galaxy, and they all died.

Janeway destroyed the Borg.

There should have been no further Borg stories after Voyager Endgame because after Voyager Endgame there were no more Borg.

(Obviously not Seven, and probably not Riely, nor any Borg that are out of contact with the collective, nor on time travel missions.)

 

[Oddish]

Actually the original intent of the writers was that Virus infected every Borg in the Galaxy, and they all died.

Janeway destroyed the Borg.

Maybe a better format for Endgame was...
1. 26 years previous, Voyager found the conduit. They were chased away from it without making a dent in it. Chakotay was lost in that fight.
2. It took them 16 more years to get home, as before. Seven was lost at some point.
3. Shortly afterward, the Borg used the transwarp conduit to devastate the Federation, much of which is now assimilated. Many of the crew are dead, others are leading shattered, messed up lives.
4. Adm. Janeway goes back in time to help Voyager destroy the stupid thing, save Chakotay and Seven, and prevent the Federation's assimilation.
5. The virus she's carrying does just that, decimating that entire collective. However. That doesn't mean there aren't other collectives out there, with their own queens.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Maybe a better format for Endgame was...
1. 26 years previous, Voyager found the conduit. They were chased away from it without making a dent in it. Chakotay was lost in that fight.
2. It took them 16 more years to get home, as before. Seven was lost at some point.
3. Shortly afterward, the Borg used the transwarp conduit to devastate the Federation, much of which is now assimilated. Many of the crew are dead, others are leading shattered, messed up lives.
4. Adm. Janeway goes back in time to help Voyager destroy the stupid thing, save Chakotay and Seven, and prevent the Federation's assimilation.
5. The virus she's carrying does just that, decimating that entire collective. However. That doesn't mean there aren't other collectives out there, with their own queens.

but we've seen that story before, and it's hardly any different from what actually happened.

Janeway went back for "reasons".

How they did it makes out that Janeway is an asshole, and then they never mention her assholery.

It doesn't make sense, so it's open to ridiculous interpretation.

When really the author was just lazy and accidentally wrote Admiral Janeway as a Villain, because he was busy trying to get Enterprise off the ground and half assed the Voyager final with a second take on Timeless.

 

[Dee1891]

but we've seen that story before, and it's hardly any different from what actually happened.

Janeway went back for "reasons".

How they did it makes out that Janeway is an asshole, and then they never mention he assholery.

It doesn't make sense, so it's open to ridiculous interpretation.

When really the author was just lazy and accidentally wrote Admiral Janeway as a Villain, because he was busy trying to get Enterprise off the ground and half assed the Voyager final with a second take on Timeless.

Huh? Oh boy.

There should have been no further Borg stories after Voyager Endgame because after Voyager Endgame there were no more Borg.

Which leads me to ask . . . why were more Borg stories? Especially in Season 2 of "Picard"?

 

[Oddish]

Which leads me to ask . . . why were more Borg stories? Especially in Season 2 of "Picard"?

Why so many Borg stories in Voyager? I expect the reasons were the same.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Huh? Oh boy.

Admiral Janeway either created another universe by appearing in the past and splitting the timeline full of pain, misery and tragedy, or she overwrote/destroyed a time timeline, 30 years of good time where the Federation thrived, by leaving it in a time machine.

Consider if in Star Trek four that the timeline split, and when Kirk gets back with the whales to save the Federation? That means he created a new time line to save and he abandoned the old time line to die under assault from the Whale probe, rather than that he killed every one by time traveling and then reincarnated every one to be slightly different.

Admiral Janeway destroyed a trillion trillion trillion souls, and gave birth to a trillion trillion trillion souls because she wanted Chakotay to get more blow jobs before he died. Killing the Borg was an afterthought.

Selfish and petty?

 

[cooleddie74]

she wanted Chakotay to get more blow jobs before he died

 

[Guy Gardener]

Seven and Chakotay got married.

They were in love and may have had a sex life.

She died from misadventure, and then he died of a broken heart.

Janeway goes back in time to save Seven of Nine, with a tiny nudge years before her expiration is due.

So Seven of Nine and Chakotay still fall in love and have an adequate sex life for decades longer than they did in the Admiral Janeway timeline?

Nope.

There's 90 trillion men and women in the Federation who are all on future space Tinder.

It is unlikely that Seven and Chakotay still get married if her dating pool is no longer restricted to 20 single dudes, 60 married dudes, and three lesbians.

Janeway is the blowjob NAZI.

She says to Chuckles "No Blowjobs for you."

 

[cooleddie74]

He is far from his bone.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I've barely seen enough of Bujold's Janeway to pass any real judgement of her. And frankly, I think Kate Mulgrew had done a hell of a job in her portrayal of the very complex and commanding Kathyrn Janeway. I also suspect that if Bujold had remained with the series, many Trek fans would have ended up bitching and moaning about her, due to the fandom's sexism.

No. Star Trek audiences were not sexist, from my understanding; they were rooting for her (Bujold) and then Mulgrew. My Dad and my 1st brother has loads and loads and loads of Janeway stuff from magazines to posters and books; there were soooooo much merchandizing for the GOAT. There was a real acceptance toward this super woman, but from my understanding during the 90's fans interests strained when the studio promoted too much on one series VOY and didn't for the previous TNG spin-off. It also didn't help the GOAT wasn't consistently written and the series wasn't as compelling as the previous spin-off which appeared to be running on full cylinders.

From my understanding there was a very welcoming attitude for the GOAT, but gosh the showrunners should've given Chakotay a backbone. One of the great moments I appreciated about the Sisko, Kira relationship was how at odds they were together; obvious mutual respect but it was necessary for one person to win an argument or disagreement because it was important for the CO to hear and understand sides of the issue where he never saw coming. The stakes were high on the other series in every episode until the War seasons. Contrast to VOY the GOAT always won the argument because she was a know it all, in a region of space where it should've been vital to accept some of Chakotay's Maquis/ Starfleet experience. It's not a good way to display the 1st officer's footing for the progress of a series where they're lost is space.

 

[Captrek]

Janeway is the GOAT because she always wins.

Always.

Even when she really deserves to lose.

And she knows it.

A perfectly illustrative moment is from Scientific Method:

TAKAR: Enter the authorisation code and change course immediately.
JANEWAY: I don't think you realise that you are not in control here anymore.
TAKAR: I can kill you and your crew in an instant.
JANEWAY: Go ahead. Without us, you won't be able to prevent this ship from being torn apart by the pulsars. And even with my crew working together, I'd say the odds of us getting through this are, what, one in ten?
TUVOK: One in twenty at best, Captain.
JANEWAY: I'm willing to take that chance. Are you?
(Takar disappears.)
TUVOK: Outer hull temperature has reached nine thousand degrees.
KIM: The hull is beginning to buckle.
SEVEN: Two alien vessels are attempting to disengage from Voyager.
(One makes it, the other is ripped apart by the pulsar's gravity.)
JANEWAY: I can't break us free of the gravitational forces.
KIM: Then let's divert all power to the shields.
JANEWAY: No. If we go in, we go in full throttle.
KIM: Captain?
JANEWAY: Assuming we survive we'll need all the momentum we can get to reach escape velocity on the other side. Everyone hang on. I hope you were exaggerating about those odds, Tuvok.
TUVOK: I was not. Hull stress has exceeded maximum tolerance.
(Things start to go bang.)
SEVEN: There are breaches on decks four, seven, eight and twelve.
KIM: Emergency forcefields are holding.
JANEWAY: I've lost helm control.
TUVOK: Main power is offline.
JANEWAY: Well, let's hope we've got enough speed.
(Voyager whooshes out the other side and into clear space.)
KIM: I don't believe it. We're alive.

The “less than one in twenty chance of survival” of course scares off the alien antagonists. But you never get the sense than Janeway thinks she’s doing something crazy that will probably get them all killed. She knows this is going to work because she’s Kathryn Janeway and she doesn’t lose.

She knows she’s a character in a TV show and the writers have her back, and she exploits that knowledge. It makes her very effective, it makes her the GOAT, but it also makes her very unrelatable to those of us who are not so favored by the authors of reality.

 

[Oddish]

The “less than one in twenty chance of survival” of course scares off the alien antagonists. But you never get the sense than Janeway thinks she’s doing something crazy that will probably get them all killed. She knows this is going to work because she’s Kathryn Janeway and she doesn’t lose.

That or she had just gone flying around the proverbial bend at warp 9. Because of what those aliens had spent four days doing to her, she was basically playing with a deck that consisted of the Ace and Queen of spades, the ten of clubs, a couple of tarot cards, a Get out of Jail Free card from a Monopoly game, a Jigglypuff Pokemon card, Buck Bokai's rookie Topps card, and a waffle recipe cut from the back of a Bisquick box.

Sometimes, as Kirk says, fortune favors the foolish. Other times, as Sisko says, it favors the bold. And here, Janeway reminds us that sometimes, it favors the completely nuts.

 

[Summer Solstice]

And she knows it.

A perfectly illustrative moment is from Scientific Method:

The “less than one in twenty chance of survival” of course scares off the alien antagonists. But you never get the sense than Janeway thinks she’s doing something crazy that will probably get them all killed. She knows this is going to work because she’s Kathryn Janeway and she doesn’t lose.

She knows she’s a character in a TV show and the writers have her back, and she exploits that knowledge. It makes her very effective, it makes her the GOAT, but it also makes her very unrelatable to those of us who are not so favored by the authors of reality.

From "Where Slience Has Lease":

PICARD: Agreed. Under the circumstances, I think there is only one decision. I will not stand by while half of my crew is slaughtered.
DATA: Sir. I do not believe there is anything you can do to prevent it.
PICARD: Yes, there is
PULASKI: What?
PICARD: Destroy the Enterprise.

Picard made the same decision. YMMV clearly, but I would not want to work for a Starfleet captain who would let aliens kill his/her crew - I'd rather work for a Starfleet captain who tried to save all of them.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

Well, first the Earth cooled. And then the dinosaurs came, but they all got too big and fat and they turned into oil.

And then Prince Charles started wearing all of Lady Di's clothes....