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Janeway and Chakotay

I really loved her interpretation of that character; she appeared to be a character who I would root for and every obstacle she faced and defeated I would cheer for her. A Captain I could admire being the first woman Captain who earned her stature making mistakes and overcoming them; become a badass CO as the seasons progressed instead on DAY 1. Like the GOAT Kathryn Janeway.


I've barely seen enough of Bujold's Janeway to pass any real judgement of her. And frankly, I think Kate Mulgrew had done a hell of a job in her portrayal of the very complex and commanding Kathyrn Janeway. I also suspect that if Bujold had remained with the series, many Trek fans would have ended up bitching and moaning about her, due to the fandom's sexism.
 
Had Bujold gone the distance, I think that we would have gotten a quieter, more nuanced, and more diplomatic Captain Janeway. Hard to say how that would have affected the show overall.
 
Had Bujold gone the distance, I think that we would have gotten a quieter, more nuanced, and more diplomatic Captain Janeway. Hard to say how that would have affected the show overall.

You've just described aspects of Mulgrew's Janeway. Is this the new thing now? Instead of labeling Janeway as a bad captain or a Mary Sue, we're now claiming that Bujold's Janeway would have been superior to Mulgrew's Janeway?:wtf: How long is this attempt to bash the Kathryn Janeway character and Kate Mulgrew's performance going to last? Forever?
 
You've just described aspects of Mulgrew's Janeway. Is this the new thing now? Instead of labeling Janeway as a bad captain or a Mary Sue, we're now claiming that Bujold's Janeway would have been superior to Mulgrew's Janeway?:wtf: How long is this attempt to bash the Kathryn Janeway character and Kate Mulgrew's performance going to last? Forever?
When the topic about the "Janeway hatred" came up (it's long since drifted way off topic), I put, first on my list of reasons, OVERSENSITIVITY. People would take remarks like the one I just made (and a previous one, regarding what Chakotay might have done differently as captain) as expressions of misogyny or anti-Mulgrew sentiment, rather than simple "what-if's".

Let me be clear. I was quite happy to hear that Star Trek would feature a woman in the captain's chair. And, I am very fond of Kathryn Janeway, as played by Kate Mulgrew. I watch Prodigy mainly for her (Ok, and Rok-tak. And Murf). For crying out loud, Janeway was the main character in the one serious fanfiction I have on this site (and featured in pretty much all of the parody ones, too). That doesn't mean I don't idly wonder how Bujold (or another actress) would have played her differently.
 
I've barely seen enough of Bujold's Janeway to pass any real judgement of her. And frankly, I think Kate Mulgrew had done a hell of a job in her portrayal of the very complex and commanding Kathyrn Janeway. I also suspect that if Bujold had remained with the series, many Trek fans would have ended up bitching and moaning about her, due to the fandom's sexism.
Well, yeah, of course. Fans bitch and moan about everything. But, wondering about what might have occurred is also part of fan experiences. We like to speculate and comment about possibility. It's not a judgement against Mulgrew.

Mulgrew did fine with what she was given. What she was given was inconsistent at best
 
Well, yeah, of course. Fans bitch and moan about everything. But, wondering about what might have occurred is also part of fan experiences. We like to speculate and comment about possibility. It's not a judgement against Mulgrew.

Mulgrew did fine with what she was given. What she was given was inconsistent at best

Inconsistent? Are you talking about her acting? Or the character? Mulgrew managed to knock it out of the ballpark for seven straight seasons, like her fellow leads. As for character inconsistency, I still wouldn't agree. If anything, I noticed how Janeway's character slowly changed over the seasons.
 
Inconsistent? Are you talking about her acting? Or the character? Mulgrew managed to knock it out of the ballpark for seven straight seasons, like her fellow leads. As for character inconsistency, I still wouldn't agree. If anything, I noticed how Janeway's character slowly changed over the seasons.
Character. Mulgrew did fine with what she was given but I did not enjoy or find the character consistent. This is nothing against the actors and all on the writers.
 
Mulgrew managed to knock it out of the ballpark for seven straight seasons, like her fellow leads.

Absolutely true. Speculations aside, Kate Mulgrew was most definitely the right choice.

Mulgrew did fine with what she was given but I did not enjoy or find the character consistent. This is nothing against the actors and all on the writers.

I certainly enjoyed watching her work, but it's true that there were issues with character consistency, and development as well. Compare how much Sisko changed with how much Janeway changed, over the seven years of their respective series. It's almost painful that the episode "Before and After" had better character evolution than the whole rest of the series.
 
"Before and After" had better character evolution than the whole rest of the series.
Indeed. Still an incredible episode and showcased the dramatic possibility of the characters if taken a different direction in the story.
 
And many of the developments that it featured could have been replicated in the series as a whole.
* Obviously, we don't want to snuff Janeway, but she could have been incapacitated for a time, requiring Chakotay to take command. The Maquis could quietly adopt conventional rank insignia at the same time.
* While Harry/Linnis would have been problematic at normal speed (because we would see her as a kid only years before), Kes getting married (to Tom or Neelix or someone else) would have been Ok.
* There was certainly no reason not to promote a few more people. If someone gotta be duh ensign, just "mustang" a few crewmen up to that rank.
* As replicator energy became less of an issue, it would make sense for Neelix to branch out. And, he actually looked pretty good in that gold uniform.
* I realize that his namelessness was an inside joke, but why not have the Doctor experiment with a few different "looks"? For him, a full head of hair is just a matter of rearranging a few photons.
 
Indeed. Still an incredible episode and showcased the dramatic possibility of the characters if taken a different direction in the story.

I DON'T AGREE. I never had a problem with "Voyager". You know, I didn't start watching the series until mid-Season Four (I caught up with the previous seasons, thanks to re-runs). I had avoided it, because so many told me that it was inferior to the likes of "TNG" and "DS9". I don't even know why I had avoided it after hearing such comparisons, because I had difficulty viewing the other two shows, along with "TOS" on a regular basis, back then. When I finally began watching "Voyager", I immediately became a fan. And in time, I managed to view both "DS9" and "TNG" on a regular basis. I noticed something else. I realized that the quality of all three shows seemed more or less the same to me. All three had their flaws, yet I found it easier to watch all three than the other Trek shows - including "TOS".


And many of the developments that it featured could have been replicated in the series as a whole.
* Obviously, we don't want to snuff Janeway, but she could have been incapacitated for a time, requiring Chakotay to take command. The Maquis could quietly adopt conventional rank insignia at the same time.
* While Harry/Linnis would have been problematic at normal speed (because we would see her as a kid only years before), Kes getting married (to Tom or Neelix or someone else) would have been Ok.
* There was certainly no reason not to promote a few more people. If someone gotta be duh ensign, just "mustang" a few crewmen up to that rank.
* As replicator energy became less of an issue, it would make sense for Neelix to branch out. And, he actually looked pretty good in that gold uniform.
* I realize that his namelessness was an inside joke, but why not have the Doctor experiment with a few different "looks"? For him, a full head of hair is just a matter of rearranging a few photons.


NO THANK YOU!!! "Before and After" was fine as an episode, but there is no way on this earth that I would accept it as part of the series' main narrative arc. No thank you. I refuse to accept a scenario in which Janeway is incapacitated for a time and which there is no Paris/Torres relationship. Tom's relationship with Kes in this episode was almost boring. And the idea of the Doctor having a head full of hair is not only very insulting to actor Robert Picardo, but also to other men who are balding.

I'm tired of being told over and over again that "Voyager" was lacking as a series. The more I had watch that show, the more I found it difficult to swallow this opinion. Was it perfect? No. Then again, none of the Trek shows were or are. Just about every Star Trek series had both flaws and virtues up the yahoo. And to this day, I still believe that this heavy barrage of criticism toward "Star Trek Voyager" had originated with the fandom's sexism and its inability to accept the idea of a woman as the lead of a Trek show. Why are these people so bothered by a woman as not only the lead in a science-fiction show, but also a figure of authority? Considering that "Star Trek Discovery" is the only other Trek show that not only has a female lead, but receives a heavy barrage of criticism, I stand by my opinion.


Compare how much Sisko changed with how much Janeway changed, over the seven years of their respective series.

Both had changed and developed a good deal over the years. What are you getting at?:shrug:


Character. Mulgrew did fine with what she was given but I did not enjoy or find the character consistent. This is nothing against the actors and all on the writers.

I disagree with you.
 
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Absolutely true. Speculations aside, Kate Mulgrew was most definitely the right choice.



I certainly enjoyed watching her work, but it's true that there were issues with character consistency, and development as well. Compare how much Sisko changed with how much Janeway changed, over the seven years of their respective series. It's almost painful that the episode "Before and After" had better character evolution than the whole rest of the series.
Very painful, but true.
 
I DON'T AGREE. I never had a problem with "Voyager". You know, I didn't start watching the series until mid-Season Four (I caught up with the previous seasons, thanks to re-runs). I had avoided it, because so many told me that it was inferior to the likes of "TNG" and "DS9". I don't even know why I had avoided it after hearing such comparisons, because I had difficulty viewing the other two shows, along with "TOS" on a regular basis, back then. When I finally began watching "Voyager", I immediately became a fan. And in time, I managed to view both "DS9" and "TNG" on a regular basis. I noticed something else as well. I realized that the quality of all three shows seemed more or less the same to me. All three had their flaws, yet I found it easier to watch all three than the other Trek shows - including "TOS".
Ok, well, that's the beauty of fan opinion. I don't expect people to ever agree with me. Voyager didn't work for me...period. It's not a comparison, not a popularity contest. It's characters who I don't connect with. Glad you do.:beer:
 
I refuse to accept a scenario in which Janeway is incapacitated for a time and which there is no Paris/Torres relationship.

They were cute together, I admit. But disagreed about Janeway. Allowing Chakotay a moment in the sun would not diminish her as a character, IMO.

And the idea of the Doctor having a head full of hair is not only very insulting to actor Robert Picardo, but also to other men who are balding.

As a balding man, I can tell you that I was not remotely insulted by Robert Picardo having hair in that episode.

And to this day, I still believe that this heavy barrage of criticism toward "Star Trek Voyager" had originated with the fandom's sexism and its inability to accept the idea of a woman as the lead of a Trek show.

Not from me. My chief criticism of Voyager is that they were so frickin' sloppy, they couldn't spend ten seconds technobabbling a reason why suddenly Voyager's 38 torpedoes were now an infinite supply, or shoot a 30-second scene where Janeway sticks a pip on Harry's collar. The sex of the captain was a non-issue.
 
As a balding man, I can tell you that I was not remotely insulted by Robert Picardo having hair in that episode.
Same. Not sure what bald man should be insulted by a fictional holographic character playing with the appearance tab but I would not be among them.
 
Same. Not sure what bald man should be insulted by a fictional holographic character playing with the appearance tab but I would not be among them.

Because in the crusade to create perfection the Borg are all Bald.

In a new Crusade to create Perfection the Doctor decided that Bald men suck, and he does not want to suck like a bald man because he is better than a bald man who sucks. (Which is how PIcardo felt downturned on China Beach, years before Voyager, where they made him wear a rug.)

Meanwhile...

I'm thinking that all Bald men in the federation are bald by choice.

Genetic manipulation is illegal but a "folic simulator" is an actual device that the Doctor used on Seven of Nine's armpits.

I'm questioning folic stimulation in a person who cannot naturally grow their own hair..

Does Seven have to have her follicles stimulated as often as anyone else has to have a hair cut. Maybe her hair can't grow/get longer (on it's own), and it can only fall out?
 
And to this day, I still believe that this heavy barrage of criticism toward "Star Trek Voyager" had originated with the fandom's sexism and its inability to accept the idea of a woman as the lead of a Trek show. Why are these people so bothered by a woman as not only the lead in a science-fiction show, but also a figure of authority? Considering that "Star Trek Discovery" is the only other Trek show that not only has a female lead, but receives a heavy barrage of criticism, I stand by my opinion.
I don't entirely buy this. I'm one of Trek's "older" male fans now that I'm in my 40s and VOY is still my favorite Trek. It's the Trek I grew up with in high school. The one I was able to catch new episodes of on a consistent basis weekly unlike DS9 which was always preempted for sports, broadcast for me Saturdays in the evenings, and so I never got into it. I always thought the strong female leads in VOY were great. Especially Janeway and Seven but Torres, Kes, even baddie Seska were relatively strong characters. (They didn't give Kes much to do admittedly but she had her moments.) Here you had a female captain who, in universe, earned her way up the ranks to the command of a starship and there was no sexist macho male bullshit to deal with within the crew. When there was discord within the crew it had nothing to do with gender but rather a questionable command decision she may have made. Which is how it should be as male and female leaders both sometimes do dumb shit and need to be held accountable by the XO. As inconsistent as the writing for Janeway could be though I don't think it holds a candle to the Michael Burnham character, which I disliked even before they promoted her to Captain, and it has nothing to do with gender. STEPhon IT claims Janeway is the GOAT but I daresay Burnham really deserves that title much more thanks to the writing team on DSC who are responsible for that show's plethora of "hate." That would be a discussion for the DSC forum however. ;)
 
I don't entirely buy this. I'm one of Trek's "older" male fans now that I'm in my 40s and VOY is still my favorite Trek. It's the Trek I grew up with in high school. The one I was able to catch new episodes of on a consistent basis weekly unlike DS9 which was always preempted for sports, broadcast for me Saturdays in the evenings, and so I never got into it. I always thought the strong female leads in VOY were great. Especially Janeway and Seven but Torres, Kes, even baddie Seska were relatively strong characters. (They didn't give Kes much to do admittedly but she had her moments.) Here you had a female captain who, in universe, earned her way up the ranks to the command of a starship and there was no sexist macho male bullshit to deal with within the crew. When there was discord within the crew it had nothing to do with gender but rather a questionable command decision she may have made. Which is how it should be as male and female leaders both sometimes do dumb shit and need to be held accountable by the XO. As inconsistent as the writing for Janeway could be though I don't think it holds a candle to the Michael Burnham character, which I disliked even before they promoted her to Captain, and it has nothing to do with gender. STEPhon IT claims Janeway is the GOAT but I daresay Burnham really deserves that title much more thanks to the writing team on DSC who are responsible for that show's plethora of "hate." That would be a discussion for the DSC forum however. ;)

Janeway is the GOAT because she always wins.

Always.

Even when she really deserves to lose.

Although you could say the same about any other series lead too, except Archer who seems to get his ass kicked at a professional level.
 
Janeway is the GOAT because she always wins.

Always.

Even when she really deserves to lose.

Even when she's punching way, WAY above her weight.

As an example, that huge Borg transwarp conduit in "Endgame"... Janeway should not have been able to destroy it or even use it her first time around, because it was undoubtedly guarded by a buttload of tactical Borg cubes, even one of which would turn Voyager into floating debris in three seconds no matter how many photon torpedoes she was able to shoot.
 
No doubt that's true of most of the series. Such as the Ent-D doing a saucer sep and going toe to toe against a Borg cube solo that just wiped out 39 starships at Wolf 359. Or the Defiant ripping through swarms of bug ships. Does that make Riker or Sisko the GOATs? Nah, it just means that we have to accept that the shows must go on. This is Star Trek not Battlestar Galactica. :lol:
 
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