James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)

[Asbo Zaprudder]

I voted excellent for spectacle and entertainment value -- it's a big dumb romantic adventure set in a well-constructed sci-fi fantasy world and that's enough. However, James Cameron needs to learn that the best stories come from "show" and not from "tell" -- he needs a good editor to keep him in line.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Its second Saturday was bigger most likely due to a few factors:

1. There was a nasty blizzard on the east coast that extended into the Midwest. A lot of people simply stayed home.
2. Word of mouth has been very positive.
3. There isn't really anything else like it in theaters right now.

I think #1 is more of a factor than #2. #3 is just dumb luck--no one else put out a sci-fi action epic.

I suspect its first weekend would've been a bit bigger (10-20%?) if not for the snowstorm.

 

[Demiurge]

It was pretty bad - gorgeous visually, but really disappointing, and overt propaganda at its base. The alien culture wasn't at all - it was a very thin veneer over mostly native american traits. I was hoping at least for that much - interesting aliens. But you could have substituted them for the Dances with Wolves native americans and told virtually the same story. The interesting scifi angles were completely ignored - the Avatar was simply a vessel to tell the story of how horrible human beings are (and by that, Cameron clearly means western capitalism). There's all sorts of wonderful concepts with that technology that weren't addressed at all.

Pretty weak sauce all in all.

But very pretty.

Basically Tree-porn.

 

[Captain Craig]

Saw it yesterday. The more I think back on it, the less and less I like it.

This is what I've predicted will be be a growing consensus in the weeks/months ahead.

Yeah, people who didn't like it initially will like it even less, quite the prediction, Nostradamus!

When Zoom says: "The more I think back on it, the less and less I like it."
That implies to me that his initial reaction to the film was better. Upon thinking on it is reaction went down. Not he didn't like it initially and liked it less after thinking on it.
Zoom can clear it up for us.

 

[davejames]

It's white guilt because a white guy enters and masters their culture. If the idea of the story was to show respect for the native culture, then a native would have been the hero who united the tribes and fought off the invaders. As it was, they needed a white guy to do that for them, and even their own Goddess preferred him to any of Her own people. So let me ask you - if the story is about how great the Na'vi culture is, why did we even need Jake to be involved?

They needed Jake because they needed the assistance and knowledge of someone who was familiar with the weapons and technology that they were up against, and who could come up with a tactical plan that would actually work against the humans. They were simply on a different level technologically (their main weapon being the bow and arrow), and didn't have that inside info. Which in no way degrades or demeans what their culture was; it's just the way things were. They were clearly the nobler and more righteous side in the end, after all.

There's nothing wrong with the ecological message except that it is delivered as part of fetishizing indigenous cultures as unrealistic noble savages, instead of as civilizations with strengths and weaknesses like any culture. And the movie is condescending and racists towards the Na'vi because, according to the story, Jake was able to equal and even lead all the Na'vi after spending only three months with them. The other Na'vi warriors had spent a lifetime learning the forest and the ways of Eywa, yet Jake walks in and becomes the one to lead the battle because, according to the story, even an ignorant, and rather dumb, white human man can learn everything these noble savages have to teach in a mere three months. That is the very essence of condescending.

Well I thought it was clear that the Nav'i body (which was better suited for the planet's environment) was giving Jake a big upper hand there. Add to that the fact he's already had tons of military training and that he had a great teacher in Neytiri. And that the planet had apparently already recognized something "special" in him.

I mean, so he was able to adapt his military training and instincts to those of another culture? I hardly find that condescending. He and the movie clearly show a lot of respect to the Navi's culture and values, and don't present them in a offhand or demeaning way at all.

 

[davejames]

It was pretty bad - gorgeous visually, but really disappointing, and overt propaganda at its base. The alien culture wasn't at all - it was a very thin veneer over mostly native american traits. I was hoping at least for that much - interesting aliens. But you could have substituted them for the Dances with Wolves native americans and told virtually the same story. The interesting scifi angles were completely ignored - the Avatar was simply a vessel to tell the story of how horrible human beings are (and by that, Cameron clearly means western capitalism). There's all sorts of wonderful concepts with that technology that weren't addressed at all.

Pretty weak sauce all in all.

But very pretty.

Basically Tree-porn.

I hardly think Cameron thinks capitalism is evil. It's made him very rich, after all.

He probably just feels, like most liberals, that it has it's excesses and that it's not the be-all and end-all of human achievement. And that the natural world is a sacred thing that should be valued and protected.

If that's nothing but "propaganda," then fine. Sign me up. lol

 

[Demiurge]

Eh, when there's a story about conflict and one side is presented as morally superior in every way, that's melodrama.

And when there's a political theme at the heard of that melodrama, it's propaganda.

Avatar was gorgeous anti-capitalistic propaganda with a fairly weak story attached. Maybe it will become more in the inevitable sequel as it has time to explore the situation in a more mature manner. But I wouldn't hold my breath there.

It wasn't science fiction, it was fantasy. If you look at it in that manner it was quite enjoyable - but that doesn't allow it to drive home the political message of the movie that Cameron is hitting you over the head with.

Oh, and as an anti-science, anti-capitalistic fable, it's ironic as hell that the very things that make it notable (the breathtaking special effects) are exactly at the heart of what it is railing against.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He probably just feels, like most liberals, that it has it's excesses and that it's not the be-all and end-all of human achievement. And that the natural world is a sacred thing that should be valued and protected.

Oh yes, "natural". The new (and by that I mean "not new") buzz-word. Anything natural is good, anything artificial must be destroyed. Fine. I think we heard it already.

 

[Professor Zoom]

This is what I've predicted will be be a growing consensus in the weeks/months ahead.

Yeah, people who didn't like it initially will like it even less, quite the prediction, Nostradamus!

When Zoom says: "The more I think back on it, the less and less I like it."
That implies to me that his initial reaction to the film was better. Upon thinking on it is reaction went down. Not he didn't like it initially and liked it less after thinking on it.
Zoom can clear it up for us.

I think you said it right on the nose. I liked the movie walking out of the theater, but then, as I would think back, on the story, the characters, and when I told a friend about the movie...there were more things sorta fell apart for me.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Oh, and as an anti-science, anti-capitalistic fable, it's ironic as hell that the very things that make it notable (the breathtaking special effects) are exactly at the heart of what it is railing against.

Eh... What the heck? Where do you get that Avatar is anti-science/technology?

Anti-colonialist, yep. Anti-greed, yes. The rest... Eh not so much.

This whole 'idea' that Cameron is anti-technology seems to come from a very limited understanding of his films.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Where do you get that Avatar is anti-science/technology?

Take one look at the Na'vi then come back and repeat that.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I voted excellent. Saw a 3-D screening (the first 3-D movie I've seen, incidentally) and it just blew me away. I've neve seen such a visually rich, spectacular, sumptious movie. Made the Star Wars prequels look like Blake's 7, by comparison. Every scene was like overload for the eyes.

Great action scenes, a decent, if predictable, plot and a better-than-expected script. The greatest cinematic experience I can remember since, well, forever. The spectacle of Star Wars, the sheer entertainment of Lord of the Rings, the 'how did they do that?' factor of The Matrix.

Don't miss it, this really is taking movie making to another level. If you wait until it comes out on DVD, you'll be depriving yourself.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Where do you get that Avatar is anti-science/technology?

Take one look at the Na'vi then come back and repeat that.

OK I did. And I repeat. Where do you get that Avatar is anti-science/technology?

How does the presence of a 'noble savage' (if one uses that term) make a film anti-science/technology? I suppose you missed all the 'noble scientists' in the film too.

 

[Kegg]

Anti-technology, perhaps, but not really anti-science. A big appeal of the Pandoran mysticism is that it's scientifically verifiable, and while the military and corporations are largely demonized the scientists are depicted uniformly as the good guy humans.

Even anti-technology has a dent in it as the technology used by the scientists is viewed fairly positively (including the Avatars themselves, naturally).

 

[Hyperspace05]

A common theme in Cameron films is the MIS-USE of technology. But he himself is as far removed from being anti-technology as anyone could be. You'd have to search to find a bigger tech-geek than him.

He has in many interviews stated how he feels that our technology is just an extension of ourselves. It is no more evil or good than we are, because we create it.

 

[Brit]

Where do you get that Avatar is anti-science/technology?

Take one look at the Na'vi then come back and repeat that.

I didn't get the Na'vi as anti technology, in fact I can see where the story (if there is sequels) could expand to find out the Na'vi are actually the more advanced culture. They might not be backward at all but very advanced, especially considering their ability to tap into the whole planet and a lot of detailed information.

There are a lot of little interesting tib bits much like Teytiri calling humans, children. Maybe humans are still children.

Looks are not everything, remember Organia from TOS's "Errand of Mercy."

Brit

 

[Arrqh]

They needed Jake because they needed the assistance and knowledge of someone who was familiar with the weapons and technology that they were up against, and who could come up with a tactical plan that would actually work against the humans. They were simply on a different level technologically (their main weapon being the bow and arrow), and didn't have that inside info. Which in no way degrades or demeans what their culture was; it's just the way things were. They were clearly the nobler and more righteous side in the end, after all.

Yes, this. I didn't get "they needed a white guy" from the movie, I got "they needed someone who understood both perspectives." Just as (most of) the humans had very little real understanding of the na'vi, the na'vi had very little real understanding of the humans and how to fight them. Jake was an ex-marine and now a na'vi warrior... he had training from both sides. And he was the only one with training from both sides. This does not denigrate the na'vi culture... if anything, it's sort of applied multiculturalism.

 

[davejames]

I voted excellent. Saw a 3-D screening (the first 3-D movie I've seen, incidentally) and it just blew me away. I've neve seen such a visually rich, spectacular, sumptious movie. Made the Star Wars prequels look like Blake's 7, by comparison. Every scene was like overload for the eyes.

Agreed. It was a real feast for the eyes, but unlike the prequels the FX never became mindnumbing for me. Perhaps because Cameron took the proper time to introduce his world and wasn't throwing a ton of new stuff at us every 5 minutes. lol

And I also couldn't help but wish I could see a Star Trek movie with kind of wonder and imagination someday. How cool would it be to see Pine and Co. running around a world like that? And in 3D???

 

[Tyberius]

PS: Edit after I read above post...I agree. It's a hollow victory. The corporation will not give up with such a valuable commodity at stake. The natives may have won this battle but they will lose the war, as the indigenous peoples of North America did in the 19th century. We want it - we'll come back and take it.

Sequels.

The aliens allowed some of the humans to stay behind, it's possible the reamaining humans will help the natives to use the surviving human technology to defend themselves.

I figure the second act will end more on a down note with a triumphant third act.

...I could see every plot point coming from a million miles away...

-Oh, the humans are attacking but the movie is only half way over. Wonder who will win?

-Uh oh, the hot alien girl doesn't like the guy. Wonder if they will work it out and fall in love?

-Oh my, the hot alien chick has a boyfriend and he doesn't like the guy. wonder if they magically will get along at the end?

Well, I figured they would have more humans saved by the end. They killed off Chicon and Grace where I thought that they could have been saved.

I, for one, liked that it was a straight forward story without a whole lot of zany plot twists shoehorned in.

 

[Demiurge]

Eh... What the heck? Where do you get that Avatar is anti-science/technology?

Anti-colonialist, yep. Anti-greed, yes. The rest... Eh not so much.

This whole 'idea' that Cameron is anti-technology seems to come from a very limited understanding of his films.

I don't think Cameron is anti-technology (though that's sure as hell the moral of T2).

However, that's clearly one of the themes here - indeed, the Navi reject human technology despite the fact it can clearly achieve things even their magical faerie trees can't.

The fact that technology is useless to the 'good guys' is one of the primary movers of the storyline - there's no diplomatic way of the corporation achieving its ends because the Navi reject human technology.