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James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)

Grade "Avatar"

  • Excellent

    Votes: 166 50.0%
  • Above Average

    Votes: 85 25.6%
  • Average

    Votes: 51 15.4%
  • Below Average

    Votes: 11 3.3%
  • Terrible

    Votes: 19 5.7%

  • Total voters
    332
one of these days I'd like to see a movie about aliens which is told from the alien perspective.
The closest thing I've seen to that, recently, is Battle For Terra which actually opens on the alien world, before the "human invasion."A strength for that film is that it presents both humans and aliens with a bit of complexity -- neither is perfectly good or perfectly evil, even if the aliens are, more or less, "in tune" with their natural surroundings.
 
Er, to which I add the suffix: "Of a movie I actually want to see." Aside from a small cult, nothing I've heard regarding Terra imbues me with much confidence.

Random thought: I'd agree the Na'vi costuming is too stereotypically Native Ameriafrican, but aside from that the visuals of this film really are conceptually very good. I liked the little things, like that giant plant which disappears when you touch it. That's just weird.
 
Er, to which I add the suffix: "Of a movie I actually want to see." Aside from a small cult, nothing I've heard regarding Terra imbues me with much confidence
What makes you say so, if I may ask?
Negative reviews, what else?

There are people who boast they don't listen to reviewers. That might be a silly boast to make, but when they do so they are probably mentally contrasting themselves to people like me, who scrupulously avoid films based on critical consensus like it'd be a cardinal sin for me to defy them.

I tend to find, also, that any sort of film that pushes the right geek buttons will have a cult audience, no matter how small. Titan A.E. is my preferred example here. It is Don Bluth and also Joss Whedon and it's a space opera, so believe it or not there are actually people out there who defend that movie and like it, even though quite frankly it's a very bad film.

Battle for Terra is a sci-fi film with a moral conunudrum and probably also explosions. There is a built in fanbase for this.
 
Well, Avatar is showing no signs of slowing down at the box office: yesterday it made another $19,418,139, which is actually 18.5% more than it made last Monday. This gives it the second-highest non-holiday Monday gross of all time, behind The Dark Knight's first Monday in release. FWIW, Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Squeakquel and Sherlock Holmes place 9th and 13th on this list respectively from what they made yesterday.

Avatar has now made $232,129,323 domestically, and $410, 864,537 internationally, for a worldwide total of $642,993,860.

Avatar has made $643,000,000 in just a little under two weeks? Wow.
 
Er, to which I add the suffix: "Of a movie I actually want to see." Aside from a small cult, nothing I've heard regarding Terra imbues me with much confidence
What makes you say so, if I may ask?
Negative reviews, what else?

There are people who boast they don't listen to reviewers. That might be a silly boast to make, but when they do so they are probably mentally contrasting themselves to people like me, who scrupulously avoid films based on critical consensus like it'd be a cardinal sin for me to defy them.

I tend to find, also, that any sort of film that pushes the right geek buttons will have a cult audience, no matter how small. Titan A.E. is my preferred example here. It is Don Bluth and also Joss Whedon and it's a space opera, so believe it or not there are actually people out there who defend that movie and like it, even though quite frankly it's a very bad film.

Battle for Terra is a sci-fi film with a moral conunudrum and probably also explosions. There is a built in fanbase for this.
As Spock would say: Fascinating ...
 
Saw it yesterday. The more I think back on it, the less and less I like it.

Beyond the incredibly stunning effects and designs, it's sort of flat. The characters aren't particularly complex (the Noble Savages are totally Noble, the Bad Corporate soldiers are totally bad.) The story isn't particularly complex or thought provoking.

It's a big empty calorie film.

Later after I watched, I just kept wondering what the movie would be like, given the same technology, etc, in the hands of a director/writer with more skills at creating fuller, more interesting characters with a more though provoking story.

And for fuck's sake; unobtainum? Really? Did a 14 year old come up with this?

(Edited to add): and I forgot about the LITERAL Deus Ex Machina. Blargh.

So, average. I think Cameron peaked with Aliens.
 
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Meanwhile, as part of this tale designed to assuage white guilt, the humans are greedy and evil (all but moutache twirling) except for the small group of kindly scientists and one token brown skinned solider. The Na'vi are spiritual, eco-friendly, peaceful, perfectly egalitarian and sexy. Jake's going over to their side lets the audience think how they would do the same in his shoes, recognizing the superior values of the natives (which are highly idealized and totally unrealistic for any society) and choosing to join them - thus allowing the white guy to once again appropriate the possessions of the natives (now, instead of their mineral resources - their ideas and ways of life). So, the audience gets to simultaneously assuage their guilt by identifying with the natives over the greedy humans and possess the groovy parts of native culture.

Why is it always "white guilt" anytime someone tries to pay respect to another culture or another way of thinking? Or tries to suggest that maybe western culture isn't perfect and has gotten some things wrong in the past?

In any case, I think it's a stretch to say this movie is being condescending or racist in regards to the Nav'i. Yeah they're held up as an ideal, but all the movie is saying is that they should be left alone to live in peace and (horror!) that the natural world is a beautiful thing that should be preserved.

And the only "evil humans" are the members of this one corporation (and their mercernaries) that are trying to strip mine the planet for profit. Kind of hard to see the positive in that. Hell, we even see the evil Colonel willing to exercise restraint early on; it's only at the end that he resorts to violence.
 
Saw it yesterday. The more I think back on it, the less and less I like it.
This is what I've predicted will be be a growing consensus in the weeks/months ahead.

Why is it always "white guilt" anytime someone tries to pay respect to another culture or another way of thinking? Or tries to suggest that maybe western culture isn't perfect and has gotten some things wrong in the past?

Cause that is what it is in this usage.
Whites/Euopeans for centuries decimated cultures for colonization and/or raw resources. We could list them if need be for you.

Avatar is not paying respects its a movie assuaging the white guilt symptom. Sadly it doesn't even do that well.

A movie could show honor to another culture and some have Avatar is just not doing that. Its template is transparent that is why you see 'white guilt' being tossed around.
 
Saw it yesterday. The more I think back on it, the less and less I like it.
This is what I've predicted will be be a growing consensus in the weeks/months ahead.

Yeah, people who didn't like it initially will like it even less, quite the prediction, Nostradamus! :p

It is pretty clear that the success of the film is bugging a lot of people. So of course there will be a backlash amongst some groups. It has happened before, and it will happen again. ;)

I suppose I can offer myself as example of the opposite trend. I liked the film even better when I saw it the 2nd time.
 
I suppose I can offer myself as example of the opposite trend. I liked the film even better when I saw it the 2nd time.

Actually...so did I. ;)

But while people on the negative end of the spectrum gripe about being called stupid because they hate it, they'll do the same to those who like it because they like it. *shrug*

I loved the movie, made me smile like a kid at Star Wars. I'm happy about that. I'm sorry for those who didn't have the same experience.
 
Actually a thought ocurred to me for the story of the sequel.

After the humans were forced to evacuate much of their tech has been left behind.. let's assume they didn't have time to destroy it ("evidence" points to that) it sits there ready to use (apart from password protected stuff).

Now.. how about a rival clan to Jake's own manages to score some of the weapons and other usable tech and starts to lose its spiritual connection to Pandora and moves closer to a more human attitude?

Result would be a civil war over ideology vs. technology and how one can lose the path and lose themselves? It's another eco/spiritual story that would fit well within the Avatar universe (you could throw in some humans too supporting the "tech" Na'vi).

Opinions?
 
My biggest problem with the movie is why in the world would Eywa/ Pandora "choose" him?
They did? I thought they bought into the logic of his argument - Eywa wants nature to have a balance, and therefore doesn't get involved, but he points out that the balance is going to be screwed up by the human invaders (citing the evidence Eywa would have from Grace's memories). I'm actually interested in how that works - does Eywa controll all the animals besides the Na'vi, or can it just jack into them whenever it feels conveinent? This is where the insistence on the 'science' aspect clashes a little bit with what is essentially a mythic moment of storytelling; for animals to side with Gods need not be explained in such a work.

Eywa appeared to "choose" Jake when he first meets Natiri and the seeds of the sacred tree light all over him. This is completely contrived and no attempt at explanation is ever made.

Beyond that he isn't 'chosen' by Eywa; but by the vagaries of the script, certainly (it's suggested he tames the Turok simply because he had an outside-the-box approach to it, but then, isn't it always the great ability of the white man to both accept the native ways and then improve upon them in these stories?)

Was that suggested? If so, I didn't catch it. He simply shows up on the Turok.

The only interesting character was Natiri - it would have been a hell of a better movie if she had been the lead character and the hero of the piece.

She's pretty much the same as Jake, though, in that she's a very simply drawn character wiith a rather obvious character arc. It'd certainly be a different movie if she was the hero, though, and one of these days I'd like to see a movie about aliens which is told from the alien perspective.

I thought Natiri had much more of a defined character - and one that was far more admirableand heroic than Jake. She was repeatedly shown to be brave, loyal, empathetic, spiritual, and intellectually and physically adventurous. Saldana also turned in the most convincing performance. The only time I had any kind of emotional response was due to Natiri's pain and passion.

Meanwhile, as part of this tale designed to assuage white guilt, the humans are greedy and evil (all but moutache twirling) except for the small group of kindly scientists and one token brown skinned solider. The Na'vi are spiritual, eco-friendly, peaceful, perfectly egalitarian and sexy. Jake's going over to their side lets the audience think how they would do the same in his shoes, recognizing the superior values of the natives (which are highly idealized and totally unrealistic for any society) and choosing to join them - thus allowing the white guy to once again appropriate the possessions of the natives (now, instead of their mineral resources - their ideas and ways of life). So, the audience gets to simultaneously assuage their guilt by identifying with the natives over the greedy humans and possess the groovy parts of native culture.

Why is it always "white guilt" anytime someone tries to pay respect to another culture or another way of thinking?

It's white guilt because a white guy enters and masters their culture. If the idea of the story was to show respect for the native culture, then a native would have been the hero who united the tribes and fought off the invaders. As it was, they needed a white guy to do that for them, and even their own Goddess preferred him to any of Her own people. So let me ask you - if the story is about how great the Na'vi culture is, why did we even need Jake to be involved?

Or tries to suggest that maybe western culture isn't perfect and has gotten some things wrong in the past?

There's nothing wrong with pointing out that the history of Western culture is one of domination and genocide of native cultures. That's not what this story was about. If this story was simply about that, then, again, a native would havbe been the hero of it. But Natiri wasn't the hero, nor was Tsutsey, or any of the Na'vi. Jake, the white guy, was.

In any case, I think it's a stretch to say this movie is being condescending or racist in regards to the Nav'i. Yeah they're held up as an ideal, but all the movie is saying is that they should be left alone to live in peace and (horror!) that the natural world is a beautiful thing that should be preserved.

There's nothing wrong with the ecological message except that it is delivered as part of fetishizing indigenous cultures as unrealistic noble savages, instead of as civilizations with strengths and weaknesses like any culture. And the movie is condescending and racists towards the Na'vi because, according to the story, Jake was able to equal and even lead all the Na'vi after spending only three months with them. The other Na'vi warriors had spent a lifetime learning the forest and the ways of Eywa, yet Jake walks in and becomes the one to lead the battle because, according to the story, even an ignorant, and rather dumb, white human man can learn everything these noble savages have to teach in a mere three months. That is the very essence of condescending.

And the only "evil humans" are the members of this one corporation (and their mercernaries) that are trying to strip mine the planet for profit. Kind of hard to see the positive in that. Hell, we even see the evil Colonel willing to exercise restraint early on; it's only at the end that he resorts to violence.

Indeed, one of the great weaknesses of the movie is its cartoonish, moustache twirling villains who might as well have "I am EVIL" tattooed on their foreheads.
 
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Eywa appeared to "choose" Jake when he first meets Natiri and the seeds of the sacred tree light all over him. This is completely contrived and no attempt at explanation is ever made.
Oh right. That. :alienblush: I'd forgotten about that. The only explanation given appears to be Neytiri's; that he has a good heart.

Was that suggested? If so, I didn't catch it. He simply shows up on the Turok.
Yep. Basically it comes in Sam Worthington's little speech about how Turoks, being the badasses of Pandora, never feel the need to look up. Evidently that line of thought hadn't occurred to many Na'vi or we'd have armies of Turok riders, or something.

I thought Natiri had much more of a defined character - and one that was far more admirableand heroic than Jake. She was repeatedly shown to be brave, loyal, empathetic, spiritual, and intellectually and physically adventurous. Saldana also turned in the most convincing performance.

More admirable and heroic, certainly (part of this being Jake's journey, naturally, he starts out as a guy who, when asked to spy on the aliens, responds with an enthusiastic 'Hell yeah'), but I felt Worthington's performance was also very strong and his character was written in such a way as to sell the movie. We needed a guy who reacted with confusion and batted away the floating jellyfish or added a bit of dry humour into the proceedings. He's definitely a Jock with a capital J, but a rather affable one.

I probably would have Neytiri be the one to unite the tribes and be the big hero but have had Sam be our POV character, which admittedly may not have been as winning a formula, but hey, such is movies.
 
Was that suggested? If so, I didn't catch it. He simply shows up on the Turok.
Yep. Basically it comes in Sam Worthington's little speech about how Turoks, being the badasses of Pandora, never feel the need to look up. Evidently that line of thought hadn't occurred to many Na'vi or we'd have armies of Turok riders, or something.

And I'd forgotten about that. As you put it (and as I'm sure you meant), that's not exactly flattering to the Na'vi, is it?

I thought Natiri had much more of a defined character - and one that was far more admirableand heroic than Jake. She was repeatedly shown to be brave, loyal, empathetic, spiritual, and intellectually and physically adventurous. Saldana also turned in the most convincing performance.

More admirable and heroic, certainly (part of this being Jake's journey, naturally, he starts out as a guy who, when asked to spy on the aliens, responds with an enthusiastic 'Hell yeah'), but I felt Worthington's performance was also very strong and his character was written in such a way as to sell the movie. We needed a guy who reacted with confusion and batted away the floating jellyfish or added a bit of dry humour into the proceedings. He's definitely a Jock with a capital J, but a rather affable one.

Affable is about the strongest thing one can say about Jake - which isn't exactly the hallmark of a memorable hero who would have the characteristics required to do the things Jake does. He just felt... uninspiring to me.
 
I absolutley loved this movie. Despite the shortcomings of the plot I think that as a total package thos movie is simply superb. I'm taking my parents and brother to see it tomorrow.

I think the movie will have great legs and will go on to make an absolute killing at the boxoffice - maybe even give Titanic a run for its money.
 
If this movie beats Titanic even if it's just domestically.
It will give Cameron free reign for his next big budget, big feature movie. And it will produce a whole new wave of 3D movies. I think combined international numbers are just to high for Avatar to reach. 1.8 billion is a really high number to hit.
 
Perhaps... But the film will be already at roughly $900m worldwide by the end of next weekend. The only question is how well it will perform in the post-holiday period. So far there really isn't any valid data to do *any* projection, because the film simply refuses to drop so far. (its 2nd saturday was even bigger than its 1st, the same for its 2nd monday compared to the 1st monday)

But I actually think it has a bigger shot of beating Titanic's international number ($1.2b) than its domestic ($600m), because the international markets have grown so much since Titanic.

Although in the end, it probably won't beat Titanic. But it should land in the #2 worldwide spot.
 
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Just saw it tonight at a late show. AMAZING. 9.5/10. (Note - I will never give anything a 10/10, so this is about as good as it gets!)
 
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