Jadzia Dax YES OR NO ?

[Nerys Ghemor]

It wasn't his profession that led me to think he might be bisexual. Rather, I had that impression more from the intensity of the focus he put on Bashir--body language cues that to me suggested he did want a certain type of contact with him. Statements in interviews from Andrew J. Robinson himself also lend themselves towards the bisexual interpretation (which does also provide him the frame of reference you mention above, for knowing about heterosexual relationships).

Scroll down to "Background" in this Memory Alpha article here, for an example of such an interview:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Elim_Garak

There's scads of other stuff if you do a Google search. So to my mind, the question is not Garak...his openness to a relationship with Bashir seems established. Bashir is the question, and whether or not he is bisexual. There I think while MAYBE a small argument could be made, we do not have the kind of clear signals we do with Garak.

So yes--I do say that I would rather have seen a relationship between Garak and Bashir, than all of Bashir's flings. The writers would've had to give us clearer signals, though, in order to take things that direction.

 

[Praxius]

Well I always understood Garak's interest in lunch with Bashir as Bashir being the only person he could quickly size up as pretty gullible and open minded.... the Bajorans didn't like him and many of the more experienced SF officers were skeptical of him.... he simply needed a friend or someone to talk to..... or at least someone to play mind games with for amusement.

At least that's how I saw the Writers play it out.

from your link:

Andrew Robinson provided non-canon insight into his role when interviewed by Amazon.com, stating "I started out playing Garak as someone who doesn't have a defined sexuality. He's not gay, he's not straight, it’s a non-issue for him. Basically his sexuality is inclusive. But – it’s Star Trek and there were a couple of things working against that. One is that Americans really are very nervous about sexual ambiguity. Also, this is a family show, they have to keep it on the 'straight and narrow', so then I backed off from it. Originally, in that very first episode, I loved the man's absolute fearlessness about presenting himself to an attractive human being. The fact that the attractive human being is a man (Bashir) doesn't make any difference to him, but that was a little too sophisticated I think. For the most part, the writers supported the character beautifully, but in that area they just made a choice they didn't want to go there, and if they don't want to go there I can't, because the writing doesn’t support it."

Besides being non-cannon right off the bat, that was Andrew's preference for the character, but it wasn't official in regards to the story itself.

And the reasons they stated towards not making him gay or bi is very apparent, as it was pretty clear during the episode where Dax met her old wife and they made out, that it was done in an obviously awkward manner, which is to be expected since it was the early/mid 90's and that kissing scene was one of the first ever gay scenes shown on dayltime tv..... it was risky just to do that, let alone have a character who was actually gay or bisexual in the series re-occurring.

I'm not saying it was right, that was just the times.... but officially, he was never bisexual or gay.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

From an official standpoint, no--however, I think that it would've taken very little for the writers to push it in that direction as far as Garak is concerned.

 

[TerokNor]

Jadzia as a character was not my fave, but ok. Same for Ezri...even I think I liked her a little more. She had something...

As for Garak, in the first episodes he did come across as interessted in Bashir in more than one way. The way he talked and looked at Bashir. However Bashir always struck me very het, so I would have found it strange to see a relationship forming between those too, other than friendship.
However having a character with a different sexual orientation than het, if he/she is not put into some over the top stereotyp, would have been fine.

TerokNor

 

[Praxius]

Yeah I wouldn't have had an issue with a gay or bi character either.... it is the Future, Space & Star Trek afterall. But hindsight 20/20, I got used to Bashir's ways of constantly being a womanizer and Garak being isolated from everybody except the one relationship he had with Dukat's daughter..... at this point, looking back, it'd just seem weird.

I dunno.... I always saw the way Garak looked at people, even Bashir as sizing someone up, reading into their responses and facial movements, testing responses, etc.... typical for a spy like Garak..... I can't say anything ever tipped me off as him being gay or bi.

Then again, in high school people used to think I was gay and I had a tendency of analyzing people's looks, expressions, etc. in a similar fashion as Garak..... and I didn't date/go out with anybody while in high school, but that mainly had to do with me thinking all the girls in my school were ugly as sin and the one's who weren't were stuck up bi'atches. :P

 

[Admiral2]

I hated her until they replaced her with Ezri. After that I realized how good I had it. So "yes".

 

[Siaynoq]

Of course she'd seem full of herself, monotone and sure of just about everything.... she did live like, how many lives?

Why would living several lives maker her monotone? But as far as being sure of herself, one can be sure of themselves without having to remind you why they are. If she's sure of herself, then that's fine. But she's like sure of herself because....she's Dax. And she's eager to remind you of that fact as well.

During the series, she did solve many key problems, thought of many important solutions, was involved in many key stories and characters, and some episodes did involve around some moral issues and decision making geared towards her, much like other characters in the show.

Soooo? I mean, the writers occasionally wrote a Dax episode just like they would do a Kira episode, a Sisko episode, an Odo episode, and so on. Like are you justifying her character somehow by saying, well she DID solve all these things and was involved in key stories....Seriously, so what? It's like with this you're arguing that she was a main character. But we're not debating that. We're debating how insufferable she is.

If anything, she's like Kirk to TOS, Riker to TNG and Paris to Voy..... AKA: The good looking, charming, sexually active, smart ass...... every series needed one, and she was it for DS9.

And she executed it rather poorly. And how was Riker typically a smart ass? He was smug, but he wasn't a smart ass. Ooh, remember in the DS9 episode The Ship? When the Jem'Hadar are shelling the surrounding area trying to draw out the crew of the crashed ship? And Worf, O'Brien and Sisko were arguing and Dax was like, "That's men for you. They buckle under just a little pressure." And Sisko was like, "Dax, maybe you haven't noticed...but no one's laughing." Unfortunately DS9 wasn't willing enough to take risks by having Sisko punctuate his remark with a sharp slap across her stupid face. Now THAT would've been priceless television.

Also, her character and development seemed geared to put the viewer in a conflict. The viewer after a while gets used to certain characters being a certain way. While Jadzia had a few episodes revolving around her questioning her worthiness of being a host and being drummed out of the qualifications, she was a confident, spirited individual that knew how to get along with just about everybody...... then comes Ezri who's completely unsure of herself, more then Jadzia ever was, doesn't know her role, doesn't know her place, and has no clue how to make friends and fill the shoes of Jadzia, meanwhile dealing with Jadzia's friends trying to adapt to Ezri being around now.

So after being annoyed for several seasons with Jadzia's self-consciousness, we now have to endure a couple more of Ezri's? And this...was a good thing according to you?

I think considering the shift DS9 took from season one through to season seven, Jadzia's place in the story line did begin to shift out of perspective, as things shifted from discovery and science, to war and what it does to people..... thus Ezri came into the spotlight and helping people deal with their issues during the war with the Dominion, helped expand the storyline a bit more solidly then if Jadzia remained.

What? You think Jadzia was intentionally killed off just to introduce a character who was a therapist to help people talk about their feelings in a time of war? Like, you say THUS Ezri came into the spotlight...

Imagine if it really went down this way. "Okay guys, we're so knee deep in war stuff, we need to kill Jadzia Dax because the show isn't as sciency anymore. But what possible new job could we bring in a new character to fulfill?"

Farrell left the show suddenly of her own volition. She wasn't like gradually being written out of the show.

Bashir had way more of an ego and a worse set of sexual ethics than Jadzia did. Who cares if Jadzia was "stringing him along?" Julian, being the self-obsessed "charmer" and obvious womanizer (or at least wannabe) that he is, was naive enough to saddle up and go along for years on a ride that never happened. No one was forcing him to, and Jadzia made it clear far more often than not that nothing was going to happen besides idle flirting and some cheap pursuit on his part. Bashir does not deserve the victim card here whatsoever.

Are you crapping down my mouth? First of all, no one is saying Bashir is a victim here. The thing is, yes, Bashir did have an ego. But he was still incredibly naive. And Bashir only was coming on to all these women. I don't think he actually got his pole greased by a single one. And how can you ask who cares if she was stringing him along if a few sentences later you say she made it clear far more often that nothing was going to happen? And it's not like Bashir ever acted all hurt by her rejections. He continued to flirt with her, so sure, it was his own fault, but she loved it when he flirted with her. That's the kind of boost to ego that Jadzia needs. Bashir likes it when people compliment him for curing a horrible plague that kills people. Jadzia likes it when people compliment her for having a parasite inside her.

He came onto Jadzia way too strong

How so? And each time he supposedly did, I didn't see her giving him the cold rejection. Instead she was all, "Oh you!"

just like he did with Sarina Douglas, who was disabled and psychologically couldn't handle his advances.

Well you missed the point then. In the end, Bashir realized she wasn't ready for a relationship. He tried, and when it became clear to him it wasn't going to work, he stopped. Why is that not enough for you?

You would think he would learn to stop whipping it out so early whenever some diverse, smart chick entered the picture. As a young man, I was frequently embarrassed by this horndog's "24th century" behavior.

As a young man?? Well excuse Star Trek! It didn't realize it was too racy for someone of your age. Next incarnation it promises something even less sterile than it already is. And of course you think you make your statement more poignant by accusing him of whipping it out. I guess someone who does equate flirting with exposing one's penis would find him to be a horndog. So my apologies to you.

Most importantly, if Jadzia were a male character, would we be complaining about her "sexual exploits," "promiscuity", and presumptiveness/ego?

I actually could care less about her promiscuity or whatever. But yes I'd still be complaining about her ego, but not because she's a woman. Because she's annoying and her Daxness is like a stick that a punch-stained face kid pokes you with. You know the kid I'm talking about. With like the Hi-C stain on his face and it's all over his shirt and shit. And he has a stick that he pokes you with cause he's a little fuckface and his parents are nowhere to be found. Well in this case, the stick is Dax. And Jadzia is like....poke...poke..poke

Methinks not, at least not to the point and detail that this thread has taken it. It is obvious that many men are uncomfortable with women being strong, in control, and able to make them jump through hoops without ever giving them a treat in return.

Waaaa! It's true! You got it all figured out and I can deny it no longer! I hate strong female characters! It threatens my masculinity in such a way that I'm incapable of even acknowledging the good ones that are all but Dax! I need help....waaaaaa

Seriously though, don't equate hating Jadzia to having issues with women. That's just stupid as hell. Some of my favorite Star Trek characters have been women. Wanna see how it's done? Watch Kira, Janeway, or heck, even Kai Winn. That was one righteous bitch!

 

[Admiral Pike]

Jadzia Dax is a great character played by a mediocre actress.

 

[jadzia_dax2369]

6. Disgustingly, she had the gall to insult a bonafide real-life literary master, Victor Hugo, for allegedly writing 'one dimensional female characters' even though she herself, Jadzia, is one of the very worst and most one-dimensional female characters ever written.

This sounds like a criticism of Terry Farrell, not Jadzia Dax. A fictional character cannot insult a writer and then be called a hypocrite for what kind of a fictional character she was. Also, your list was long enough without this being added to it.

When I agreed with you about Bajorans in the other thread, I was wondering what it was I vaguely remember disagreeing with you passionately about in the past, and now I have my answer.

And here comes the big response from Jadzia fan #1...

Damn, posts like those just flabbergast me and make my heart sink. There's a temptation to respond to all this mean-spirited criticism with some of my own (i.e. how can you be so delusional?), but instead I'll just say it saddens me that you cannot get the immense enjoyment from this character that there is to be had (which I am proof of).

Humour is subjective. I always thought Jadzia's stories and jokes were cute and charming. I like how she had that nostalgic wistful old man quality while at the same time she was convincingly a confident, cheerful young woman. For me, she was like a ray of light into every episode/scene she appeared in. I have never been more appreciative for the presence of a character on Star Trek as much as I was with her. I would get pissed when she wasn't in episodes much or at all or had only a few lines. "Where's Jadzia?" I'd think to myself...even in episodes that were doing fine without her.

I don't care if her role was not as sharply defined as other characters and if the writers weren't always sure what to do with her. I don't care that Terry Farrell was the least experienced and least accomplished actor on the show, who had the fewest big dramatic scenes, and therefore the fewest opportunities to show any kind of range. I still think she had it in her, as evidenced by how episodes like "Re-Joined" affected me.

I loved the way she played the character, both when she was being serious and humourous. I thought her performance in "Re-Joined", as she's tortured by her desire to be with someone romantically when she cannot was heartbreakingly moving. I despise promiscuity as much as the next guy, but the fact that she was free-spirited sexually didn't matter to me. At least she never seriously hurt anyone with her sexual activity (there was just a little low-key jealousy from Worf, mostly for comedy).

I grew up watching TNG and got into DS9 reluctantly (really hated most of the first two seasons) and was very surprised to find it ended up being the show that featured my favourite Star Trek character of them all. Not bad for a "smug" character with very little purpose played by a severely limited actress. Oh, and I still maintain she's the most beautiful regular cast member ever on Star Trek. The fact that Jeri Ryan is more popular than her looks-wise in the fan community is baffling to me.

well this is fun

i love jadzia she was for me the only reason i like ds9, i cant stand voyager ( the seven of nine show). i liked terry as jadzia there was for me nothing wrong with her as a character. as for jeri ryan * boring* ive seen better. ( im not gay by the way, ive just got better taste, terry played jadzia the best she could and dont forget she left because she wanted more from a role dont that tell you something!!!!)

deep space nine is, and always be, the BEST ( for me)

 

[crouteru]

I like the concept of the Trill as a joined species, and by extension Jadzia Dax. I enjoyed the fact that because of her exstensive experiences, she tends to be more forthright and comfortable with things outside the norm.

 

[Ensign Johnson]

I've found Jadzia likeable from the first ds9 episode I saw. I don't like her as much as Kira, but Jadzia does seem like she'd be more fun than Kira. Most of the women of Star Trek are very serious all the time (e.g. Kira, Seven, Torres) so its nice to see a woman character who's up for a laugh. There are loads of smug Trek characters but they are all so smart I think they have a right to be. Sometimes Jadzia is stuck with just technobabble but when there are episodes centred around her I tend to enjoy them. As for acting ability, maybe she could be more expressive but I'd rather slightly wooden than the over acting of Sisko any day. I thought the acting in re-joined was great though, one of my fave episodes.
I did like Ezri but she took some getting used to, I felt like it was too soon to replace Jadzia.

 

[jadzia_dax2369]

I've found Jadzia likeable from the first ds9 episode I saw. I don't like her as much as Kira, but Jadzia does seem like she'd be more fun than Kira. Most of the women of Star Trek are very serious all the time (e.g. Kira, Seven, Torres) so its nice to see a woman character who's up for a laugh. There are loads of smug Trek characters but they are all so smart I think they have a right to be. Sometimes Jadzia is stuck with just technobabble but when there are episodes centred around her I tend to enjoy them. As for acting ability, maybe she could be more expressive but I'd rather slightly wooden than the over acting of Sisko any day. I thought the acting in re-joined was great though, one of my fave episodes.
I did like Ezri but she took some getting used to, I felt like it was too soon to replace Jadzia.

i agree, but Ezri grew on me the more i watched her the more i like her, but Jadzia will always be my fave.

 

[Kira Nerys]

Absolutely the actress got better as the seasons came.

 

[Kathryn-janeway]

Absolutely the actress got better as the seasons came.

Agreed
Terry did a fantastic job, and jadzia will always be my favourite. I like Ezri as iv just got season 7 last week, but jadzia was more funny. It a shame terry quite ds9 to work on Becker.. but hey that's life.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

I don't get the "rampant promiscuity" criticism either.

Jadzia had some sort of off-screen relationship with Captain Boday and then another relationship with Worf. Add to that a brief affair with the guy from "Meridian". And she kissed Lenara Khan once. This means that she probably had sex with a total of three people during the course of the series. Just like Odo, actually. It's not like she was sleeping with half the senior staff (I guess she could have with Bashir, Kira, Sisko, and Quark if she had wanted too ). Ezri on the other hand managed to have sex with Worf and Bashir, despite having been on the show for only a single season.

I agree however that the character was one of the less interesting ones on the show. Part of the blame lies on the writers, and another part on the actress. The character doesn't annoy me though, I just don't care that much about her.

 

[otherjr]

I thought Dax failed as a character, but that was the writers fault and not Terry Ferrells. See, at first they wanted her to be:

an "old man", a person with centuries of experience to guide Sisko...a Grace Kelly/Audrey Hepburn kind of goddess
-Memory Alpha

But then they changed it too:

Ira Behr really figured it out, probably not until the second season, when he really made her a smart-talking, wise-cracking tough cookie."
-Memory Alpha


The problem with this is that if you design a character to fill a certain purpose in the show, and then you change that character, he or she isnt going to fit into the dynamic of the show. The whole tough cookie thing was already Kira's, and while they might have put a slightly different spin on that idea for Jadzia, it didnt work. This means that, unless its a specifically Jadzia orientated episode, theres nothing she can really do to advance the plot, so all the writers can give her is throwaway lines and bad jokes. This is particularly noticable in 'rocks and shoals'. This is a real problem in DS9 because that series really relied on having a great ensemble of characters.

I think they should have stuck with the idea of making her a wise councellor for Sisko. By making Dax more part of the crew it meant that she had to make mistakes and such for storylines to develop, and that doesnt work with the idea of seven lifetimes of experience. This was why the relationship with Worf was so horrible.

The whole Dax character was pulled so many ways that it just ended up being a total mess.

 

[DevilEyes]

The problem with this is that if you design a character to fill a certain purpose in the show, and then you change that character, he or she isnt going to fit into the dynamic of the show. The whole tough cookie thing was already Kira's, and while they might have put a slightly different spin on that idea for Jadzia, it didnt work.

Why can't both women on the show be tough cookies?

And how much more cliche can you get than "wise old counselor"?

And I completely disagree, it worked wonderfully for Jadzia, unlike the rather boring early persona that they had planned for her. Jadzia and Kira were very different, with Jadzia's relaxed, fun-loving, open-minded attitude and humor contrasting Kira's intense, high-principled personality. That's why their friendship and conversations were fun (something they absolutely failed/didn't even try to replicate with Ezri). I also think her relationship with Worf worked very well, with her affinity for Klingon culture together with her more realistic and irreverent attitude providing a challenge and a contrast to his earnest and narrow-minded ideas about Klingonity.

 

[flemm]

The characters that work best on DS9 are the ones with some inherent connection to the basic premise of the Federation taking over a Cardassian space station after the Bajoran occupation.

Sisko: leader of the Federation contingent that takes over the station, Emissary of the Bajoran prophets.
Kira: member of the Bajoran resistance, Bajoran liaison officer to Starfleet.
Odo: "raised" on Bajor during the occupation, worked on Terok Nor prior to the Federation's arrival.
Quark: owned the bar on Terok Nor.
Garak: Cardassian exiled on the station.
Dukat: prefect of Bajor during the occupation.

O'brien gets a pass because he is the show's everyman and because the writers find the "torture O'Brien" theme pretty quickly as a way of generating high-quality standalone episodes for him.

Worf brings a whole Klingon subplot with him, which makes his involvement feel significant.

The characters that have problems are the Starfleet personal with no special link to the station, basically Dax and Bashir. The writers have a pretty hard time finding a direction for them, and they tend to be rather tangential to the series' main storylines, to the point where you could plug in almost any Doctor or science officer and nothing much would really change, except that you wouldn't get all the information on the Trill.

With Bashir, eventually the writers come up with the idea of Section 31 as a meaningful storyline for him. Dax gets to marry Worf

Why can't both women on the show be tough cookies?

I do think some of the success the writers had with Kira's "tough-cookiness" rubbed off on Jadzia, but that's not a big issue. The fact that both the female leads on DS9 end up being formidable is not a bad thing, though Dax's taste for rough Klingon sex always felt forced to me.

 

[vas2009]

I did not like Dax in the begining I thought she was boring. I started to like her more and more as the series went on. She added a little extra something to the cast of characters, a little comic relief at times, her interaction/relationship with Worf and I was upset by her death.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

O'brien gets a pass because he is the show's everyman and because the writers find the "torture O'Brien" theme pretty quickly as a way of generating high-quality standalone episodes for him.

O'Brien also has a history with the Cardassians, too.