I've really grown to genuinely love "The Search for Spock."
- Thread starter Amasov
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I'm reasonably sure Esteban meant that if anything came up that would necessitate reporting back to Starfleet, he'd be in a lot more trouble than Saavik would.
That doesn’t make him a coward in the slightest. That makes him a by the book officer who doesn’t want his record getting a black mark because his two enthusiastic scientists may not see beyond their own discoveries. Which is why he’s out there in a science vessel instead of on the frontier like the Enterprise. It’s also why he continually cites regulations and consults with Starfleet. Is he a good captain? Well, maybe he is a great administrator who gets the job done, but he’s not a risk taker or an independent thinker. He’s a rule follower who observes the letter but not the spirit of the regulations. The Anti-Kirk. Kirk would bend the prime directive, but Esteban never would consider it. Kirk changes the rules. Esteban follows them. That makes him neither a fool nor a coward. That makes him human. He probably assumed this would be a glory mission of discovery and he didn't want his people mucking it up.
He has ZERO combat smarts, which is again probably why he’s on a science vessel. Probably got the posting because his father was a higher up and called in a favor.
I loved the film but felt cheated after the catharsis of dealing with Spock’s sacrifice only to have him brought back to life - and i know the backstory regarding Nimoy wanting out of Trek then having a change of heart.No, it's never been one of my favorite movies in the franchise, but, I've been watching it on and off over the past few weeks and I think it truly captures the essence of what made the original series so enjoyable for me. This is a movie strictly about a family; how far that family is willing to go and what they'll sacrifice in order to save one of their own.
The Search for Spock is also extremely emotionally-charged. There is so much personal pain inflicted onto these characters, between them still reeling from the death of Spock, practically throwing away their careers to save him, Kirk literally brought to his knees from the loss of his son, and capped off by the destruction of the Enterprise; it's really quick remarkable everything they go through in such a short period. And all of this is a major contributing factor into why I love The Voyage Home so much; it was the recovery phase both for the characters and us, the audience.
Maybe this is a little controversial, but, I've only now started to take notice of what a great actor William Shatner is. There are just these small touches, especially in this film, that he does that really sells his performance as Kirk; particularly in the moments where he turns to Bones saying, "What have I done?" or when he sees Spock again at the film's conclusion.
And just as a side, I'd also argue that Christopher Lloyd plays not only one of the best Klingons in the franchise, but a really fantastic villain, overall.
As I said, it's not a favorite of mine, but it's absolutely gone up a few notches on my list. It's really a great Star Trek movie with so much heart.
I’m honestly torn. Characters need never stay dead after that, you know? As I’ve said before, manipulate the timeline, alternate universes and no one need ever stay dead.
I don't know about that last part, but everything up to that certainly makes sense.
The last part was kinda tongue in cheek, I should have put a winky. But the rest was my take on it.
Once I get over the fact that they have no reason to go to Genesis for his body, as they don't know he's alive and the Vulcan ceremony they're supposed to be going to shouldn't require Spocks corpse...and Sareks silly line about how getting Spock cost Kirk his ship and his son when his ship was already being decommissioned and his son was being held by Klingons on a dying planet before he even got there, it's a fun movie. It just suffers from being the weakest link in the 2-3-4 trilogy.
Well, Sarek probably didn't know about the Enterprise being decommissioned (and Kirk - knowing Kirk - may have been able to finagle something) and it's also possible Sarek didn't know any details of David's death. Just than in the course of getting Spock's body, David was killed by the Klingons in the battle which destroyed the Enterprise. Sarek had his own crisis to deal with, so he most likely only got highlights.
The rest was ruined in the swapping of the order of scenes. The film was supposed to open with Grissom finding Spock's intact tube and a life form reading. I would love to see the original cut to see if the story is a little more solid.
I just watched it again. I've lost count of how many times I've seen this movie after the initial 7 theatrical views in 1984 and one in a revival theater in 2014. My love for this one never wavers. Even though the plot holes get larger with every rewatch. Like, why couldn't Enterprise and the BoP just scan each other to see how many crew were on board? There is no explanation for why Kruge assumes 400+ people are on the Enterprise when a simple scan would show 5. Same with Kirk. Why ask Sulu to guess when they could find out (they had no trouble doing this in the series even with shields up)? Why did Kruge wait for Kirk to say it was okay to beam over? None of these problems are unsolvable and a line or two of dialog would have cleared it up pretty easily. I mean, we armchair writer fans can self justify all of it.
But here is why I love this movie no end.
It's Kirk's movie more than any other. Spock is off screen and out of the mix for the great majority of the film. Shatner drives this film. And he runs with it. Needless to say, since Kirk is my favorite character, this is ideal for me.
This film makes sure everyone is out of their comfort zone, including fans: Kirk doesn't have authorized access to his ship. Spock is dead, McCoy is going nuts. Kirk is outgunned and is placed in an impossible situation. Nobody can save on e of the hostages and it was a toss up over who was gonna get the knife (although David was always the odds on favorite and Spock was most certainly not even in the running). Kirk is put at a disadvantage but that's when he's at his best. We rarely get to see him improvise on this level. Once David is killed, he knows he has to make some extreme choices. Every action at this point is there just to buy time. He lures the Klingons over and blows up the ship, beaming to Genesis. He's really just stranded everyone until the planet blows, because there's no guarantee of getting on the Klingon ship. But McCoy says it:
"What you always do. Turn death into a fighting chance to live."
That's all he ever needed. Buy enough time until he can spot the next opening. That's how this movie goes: jump to the next space and look for the next opportunity.
Also, unlike Khan, Kirk gets to physically meet his opponent and it's a great fight. The operatic climax of the planet's destruction is a fantastic backdrop. The seams show in the effects, but no other classic Trek film captured this level of epic chaos. While The Motion Picture had the grandeur, this had that plus the personal stakes.
Klingons being nasty sons of bitches. Not played for humor or protestations of honor or head-butting Rugby players. Ruthless warriors out for conquest. Good stuff!
THE MUSIC! James Horner takes his Star Trek music into more mature and emotional territory than his grand swashbuckling of The Wrath of Khan. A perfect evolution and a beautiful companion to his earlier score.
Here's the thing: this film existed to bring Spock back. That was a given. Nimoy wanted back in, so there was no chance the set up of Khan's final minutes was going to continue. Star Trek was not going to be about Kirk on the Enterprise with Saavik as science officer along with Carol and David in tow. So instead of doing something cheap, they turned the whole film into a high stakes, emotional journey, bringing Spock back in the closing minutes. Spock's return was earned. While this led to the inevitable reset button at the end of the next picture, Star Trek III ends with a question mark. It is the only one of the films which didn't have a true finale. You needed, you expected a follow up. Every other film could have wrapped up the series, but not this one. If it ended here, we'd still be wondering if Kirk and crew faced the repercussions of their actions. But the main story ended on a note of joy and I walked out of that theater in really high spirits.
I am fully aware of all the film's faults, but there is nothing to diminish my unending love of this film. It has been and ever shall be my favorite.
But here is why I love this movie no end.
It's Kirk's movie more than any other. Spock is off screen and out of the mix for the great majority of the film. Shatner drives this film. And he runs with it. Needless to say, since Kirk is my favorite character, this is ideal for me.
This film makes sure everyone is out of their comfort zone, including fans: Kirk doesn't have authorized access to his ship. Spock is dead, McCoy is going nuts. Kirk is outgunned and is placed in an impossible situation. Nobody can save on e of the hostages and it was a toss up over who was gonna get the knife (although David was always the odds on favorite and Spock was most certainly not even in the running). Kirk is put at a disadvantage but that's when he's at his best. We rarely get to see him improvise on this level. Once David is killed, he knows he has to make some extreme choices. Every action at this point is there just to buy time. He lures the Klingons over and blows up the ship, beaming to Genesis. He's really just stranded everyone until the planet blows, because there's no guarantee of getting on the Klingon ship. But McCoy says it:
"What you always do. Turn death into a fighting chance to live."
That's all he ever needed. Buy enough time until he can spot the next opening. That's how this movie goes: jump to the next space and look for the next opportunity.
Also, unlike Khan, Kirk gets to physically meet his opponent and it's a great fight. The operatic climax of the planet's destruction is a fantastic backdrop. The seams show in the effects, but no other classic Trek film captured this level of epic chaos. While The Motion Picture had the grandeur, this had that plus the personal stakes.
Klingons being nasty sons of bitches. Not played for humor or protestations of honor or head-butting Rugby players. Ruthless warriors out for conquest. Good stuff!
THE MUSIC! James Horner takes his Star Trek music into more mature and emotional territory than his grand swashbuckling of The Wrath of Khan. A perfect evolution and a beautiful companion to his earlier score.
Here's the thing: this film existed to bring Spock back. That was a given. Nimoy wanted back in, so there was no chance the set up of Khan's final minutes was going to continue. Star Trek was not going to be about Kirk on the Enterprise with Saavik as science officer along with Carol and David in tow. So instead of doing something cheap, they turned the whole film into a high stakes, emotional journey, bringing Spock back in the closing minutes. Spock's return was earned. While this led to the inevitable reset button at the end of the next picture, Star Trek III ends with a question mark. It is the only one of the films which didn't have a true finale. You needed, you expected a follow up. Every other film could have wrapped up the series, but not this one. If it ended here, we'd still be wondering if Kirk and crew faced the repercussions of their actions. But the main story ended on a note of joy and I walked out of that theater in really high spirits.
I am fully aware of all the film's faults, but there is nothing to diminish my unending love of this film. It has been and ever shall be my favorite.
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I unironically think Kruge is the most complicated and effective villain in the series.
Chang and Kruge had the same goals: to preserve the Klingon race. Chang was a great solider who didn't want the cold war to end, but he was far too human for my taste.
Kruge was a Klingon: rough, ruthless, and not very smart honestly. He should have smelled a trap as soon as Kirk started telling him when to beam over, but he couldn't see past the glory of grabbing the Enterprise and Genesis. Instead, he willing gave Kirk the time he needed to sucker them in.
However, he sacrificed his lady for the greater good of the Empire. He loved his dog. He had a code - he didn't kill for no reason, but he didn't shy away from it to make a point. Killing a hostage wasn't a waste of life, it was a pressure point. Killing the crew of the Grissom was a waste that he didn't sanction. He would rather die than be assisted by his enemy. He'd rather die than make a deal with that same enemy. He didn't make promises he knew he wouldn't keep - he could have said "I will save the Vulcan for Genesis" gotten the info and just beamed his own ass up. He didn't do that. Kruge was honest. Change was slippery and his movies were unclear to Gorkon and the Federation. Kruge was up front. When he said Kirk had a certain amount of time before boarding, he gave him that time instead of pressing the advantage of deceit and surprise. His honesty cost him his crew.
I could respect Kruge. He was a balls out, full on Klingon with clear motives, values, a conscience and a heart for those he valued. He just f'ked with the wrong guy.
Kruge was a Klingon: rough, ruthless, and not very smart honestly. He should have smelled a trap as soon as Kirk started telling him when to beam over, but he couldn't see past the glory of grabbing the Enterprise and Genesis. Instead, he willing gave Kirk the time he needed to sucker them in.
However, he sacrificed his lady for the greater good of the Empire. He loved his dog. He had a code - he didn't kill for no reason, but he didn't shy away from it to make a point. Killing a hostage wasn't a waste of life, it was a pressure point. Killing the crew of the Grissom was a waste that he didn't sanction. He would rather die than be assisted by his enemy. He'd rather die than make a deal with that same enemy. He didn't make promises he knew he wouldn't keep - he could have said "I will save the Vulcan for Genesis" gotten the info and just beamed his own ass up. He didn't do that. Kruge was honest. Change was slippery and his movies were unclear to Gorkon and the Federation. Kruge was up front. When he said Kirk had a certain amount of time before boarding, he gave him that time instead of pressing the advantage of deceit and surprise. His honesty cost him his crew.
I could respect Kruge. He was a balls out, full on Klingon with clear motives, values, a conscience and a heart for those he valued. He just f'ked with the wrong guy.
I'm also curious about your reasoning, and in particular I'd like clarification on this idea. Off the top of my head, I don't recall anything that paints Kruge as particularly heroic in the sense of preserving the race. My interpretation of him has always been that he's a ruthless warrior just trying to get ahead. If I recall correctly, the novelization identifies him as a privateer, which is a characterization I can buy in to. Nothing about him strikes me as "noble but misguided." What am I missing?
Kruge states it plainly to Torg:
“Even as our emissaries negotiate for peace with the Federation, we will act for the preservation of our race. We shall seize the secret of this weapon, the secret of ultimate power.”
there was never any indication he was lying or getting it for personal gain.
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Fair enough. For me, the focus of his speech is that he wants ultimate power. The "preservation of our race," in the context of everything else that happens, comes off more as his justification for his actions rather than his motivation, more of a motivational speech for the troops. Nonetheless, there's definitely enough wiggle room for your interpretation.
The difference between the two situations is that in TSFS, the Genesis device gives the Federation an advantage that the Klingons via Kruge are not comfortable with. His paranoia (and he’s probably a common Klingon) sees it as a weapon the Federation will use to expand and control. Torg states that as “great power to control. Dominate.” However, the Federation is more of a discovery minded organization, but however it did cause controversy the Klingons were not aware of.
In TUC the Klingons are in a totally dependent position because of the Praxis explosion. Chang is trying to keep his culture alive. Kruge is trying to get an advantage away from the Federation. He wants to tip the scales back.
Now I’m not saying he wouldn’t try to use that power for his own ends. He seems to see the idea of peace with the Federation as a weakening move. He probably would keep the weapon to attempt to take control of the Empire with the idea of preserving the Klingon way of life - as one of conquering.
Same goals: preserving the way of life they are used to. I just prefer Kruge because he’s acting like a Klingon, not a Shakespearean actor.
In TUC the Klingons are in a totally dependent position because of the Praxis explosion. Chang is trying to keep his culture alive. Kruge is trying to get an advantage away from the Federation. He wants to tip the scales back.
Now I’m not saying he wouldn’t try to use that power for his own ends. He seems to see the idea of peace with the Federation as a weakening move. He probably would keep the weapon to attempt to take control of the Empire with the idea of preserving the Klingon way of life - as one of conquering.
Same goals: preserving the way of life they are used to. I just prefer Kruge because he’s acting like a Klingon, not a Shakespearean actor.
Honestly I think the the bit that sums of Kruge's motivation best is:
"Oh yes, new cities, homes in the country, your woman at your side, children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation. Charming"
Whereas Chang himself strikes me as someone who's life has been defined by the conflict with Starfleet and deeply fears any change to come, Kruge outright believes that even if the Empire is not destroyed, it will be wholly absorbed by the Federation and be under its subjugation, even in passive form. One wants the perpetual enemy the other's seeking imperial preservation at any cost.
"Oh yes, new cities, homes in the country, your woman at your side, children playing at your feet. And overhead, fluttering in the breeze, the flag of the Federation. Charming"
Whereas Chang himself strikes me as someone who's life has been defined by the conflict with Starfleet and deeply fears any change to come, Kruge outright believes that even if the Empire is not destroyed, it will be wholly absorbed by the Federation and be under its subjugation, even in passive form. One wants the perpetual enemy the other's seeking imperial preservation at any cost.
I do think they're both fine villains. Kruge gets a bum rap for following Khan (much like the film itself does). While Harve Bennett wasn't the most subtle or deep of storytellers, there are layers to Kruge and isn't the over the top villain that Khan was. His performance is just large enough to sell the opera but still real enough to make him a formidable foe for Kirk. I also love that Kirk never knew his name. That "Klingon bastard" who killed his son refued to tell him, which was a nice touch. Khan "wanted you to know first who it was who had beaten you." Kruge didn't care about that, he just wanted the Genesis info.
