it's sexist!

[Red Ranger]

Or was that just because he was a guy and it didn't affect him?

He was a guy in the 1960's.

However:

TOS had Uhura, and The Romulan Commander from Enterprise Incident...

The Romulan Commander was pretty interesting.

But Uhura...man, I think a LOT of potential was missed in her. By putting her in a position that was basically treated like the 23rd-century equivalent of a secretary, not a lot was really done to further people's ideas of what it was women's "place" to be doing. I think I would've liked to have seen her doing something with a little more "clout" than that.

(Some of the novels, however, made admirable strides in rectifying the situation, really showing off her linguistics/cryptography knowledge and elevating her role beyond what was seen onscreen. But for something actually shown on-screen, I think I would've liked to have seen her doing something that would've back then been more traditionally "man's work," like, say, chief engineer, and nobody thinking anything unusual of it.)

Nerys:

Yes, it would've been nice if they did show her doing other things more often. I do want to point out that a few times, she did do non-traditional jobs on the ship.

In one ep, Uhura is seen doing repair work on the communications console. And a couple of times, she did take over the navigator station.

Just once, would've liked to see her fire the ship's phasers or photon torpedoes, though!

Red Ranger

 

[Vance]

TOS had Uhura, and The Romulan Commander from Enterprise Incident...

I got to admit, it seems pretty odd that people complain about the sexism in TOS (and sometimes look for it even where it's not there), but go on to give ENT and VOY a complete pass despite it's rather blatant sexist pandering. Even DS9, which is considered the most 'modern' of the Treks in this regard, had all the female cast thrown into tilitalition scenes on a regular basis, going so far as making the 'mirror universe' nothing more than a fetish fantasy.

 

[T'Bonz]

I agree. TOS was a product of its times and so some of the blatant sexism could be excused. But in later Trek, you had females in tight catsuits, females being silly and stupid (Jadzia Dax's "de-evolution" from smart scientist to DS9's partying girl) and of course, Mary Sue Seven of Nine Barbie Borg (and HER catsuit) and T'Pol, who went from being a normal somewhat disdainful Vulcan to someone who received Trip in her quarters in skimpy pajamas that seemed to be about four sizes too small.

I used to cringe at some of the ways females were portrayed. "I'm frightened, Captain," from Uhura was bad enough, but at least there was an excuse. In the 1960s, many females were not presented as strong, non-dippy females. By the time the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s came along, there were *plenty* of strong women on TV, moreover ones who wore clothes that actually fit what they were doing in the show.

 

[Red Ranger]

I agree. TOS was a product of its times and so some of the blatant sexism could be excused. But in later Trek, you had females in tight catsuits, females being silly and stupid (Jadzia Dax's "de-evolution" from smart scientist to DS9's partying girl) and of course, Mary Sue Seven of Nine Barbie Borg (and HER catsuit) and T'Pol, who went from being a normal somewhat disdainful Vulcan to someone who received Trip in her quarters in skimpy pajamas that seemed to be about four sizes too small.

I used to cringe at some of the ways females were portrayed. "I'm frightened, Captain," from Uhura was bad enough, but at least there was an excuse. In the 1960s, many females were not presented as strong, non-dippy females. By the time the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s came along, there were *plenty* of strong women on TV, moreover ones who wore clothes that actually fit what they were doing in the show.

Guess that means I'm a devolved Neanderthal for daydreaming about some Orion slave girls serving me mai tais on Risa, and then executing the horizontal mambo in its two suns' light! -- RR

 

[CaptainHawk1]

I was watching The Man Trap today, which I haven't seen before, and I was astonished at how sexist the episode was. I mean, TOS is laced with various bits of sexism. Mudd's Women, anyone? The entire show- "I just want to be a normal woman, cooking and cleaning for my rugged husband!"

The first line by Uhura in the entire series is "oh, Spock, don't you want to tell me how attractive I am?" That was paraphrased, of course.

During the episode(Man Trap), the checker-haired girl(can't remember her name) is walking down the hallway with a tray of food, and her fellow crewmen are oogling her. It was incredibly bothersome to watch this, because it seemed like she was getting no respect from her co-workers.

Not to mention the uniforms the females wear. The future may be less conservative, but in all practical sense this was a television show in 60s and you can pretty much assume those uniforms were meant for something more than futuristic social allowances.

Finally, most of the women I've seen in TOS are emotional wussbags that serve as nothing more than something nice to look at.

Now, I will say that the other Trek series do the same thing- namely the skin-tight suits of Deanna Troi, Seven of Nine, and T'Pol. But it's fairly balanced by the fact these women are shown as intelligent, strong, and worthy of a background story.

In TOS, there is such a pronounced disservice to women that my enjoyment of the show has been a bit soured by it.

What do you think?

TOS is incredibly misogynistic, right up to Turnabout Intruder. This is part of the reason why I have no problem with the reboot.

-Shawn

 

[gomtuu20]

Is it sexist for men to enjoy looking at sexy women in skimpy outfits? Is it sexist for women to look at scantily clad men? Why isn't there any outrage at TOS showing Kirk without his shirt on in order to attract viewers? They even shaved his chest! Why is that any different? Isn't that exploiting his body to attract female viewers? How many times did Kirk's tunic get torn in order to show his pecs?

Oh, and one other thing. TOS was the most groundbreaking show on the air as far as promoting women for BOTH their abilities and their beauty.

Look at other 60's TV shows: Dick Van Dyke, Andy Griffith, Leave it to Beaver, Dennis the Mennis, or any other 1960's show and compare the alleged "sexism" in those shows to TOS. Then ask yourself which of all the series promoted womens' roles more.

I know this will tick people off, but I heartily submit that TOS is NOT sexist at all! It showed women as being sexy, but women are sexy! Aren't they? It also showed that they could do a number of professional jobs at a time when that was not expected of women. TOS showed women as being sexy AND smart AND capable. Women are sexy, smart and capable. Is it sexist to portray them as being all three? Janice Lester took over Kirk's body because women couldn't be starship commanders. That is because when GR portrayed a female number one, the women in the audience hated it!

Society has changed the rules on what women's roles are. (Was it inspired by Trek?) Don't try to place today's values in a 40 year old TV show. Accept it and celebrate it for the groundbreaking show that it was, not what you expect it to be by today's values. In another 40 years, we might look back and realize how silly it was for our society to try and shun femininity.

I understand that most everyone posting here will disagree with my opinion, but thanks for reading it anyway. Please don't be angered by my opinions just because they differs from yours. Remember, infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
Thanks

 

[Red Ranger]

Is it sexist for men to enjoy looking at sexy women in skimpy outfits? Is it sexist for women to look at scantily clad men? Why isn't there any outrage at TOS showing Kirk without his shirt on in order to attract viewers? They even shaved his chest! Why is that any different? Isn't that exploiting his body to attract female viewers? How many times did Kirk's tunic get torn in order to show his pecs?

Oh, and one other thing. TOS was the most groundbreaking show on the air as far as promoting women for BOTH their abilities and their beauty.

Look at other 60's TV shows: Dick Van Dyke, Andy Griffith, Leave it to Beaver, Dennis the Mennis, or any other 1960's show and compare the alleged "sexism" in those shows to TOS. Then ask yourself which of all the series promoted womens' roles more.

I know this will tick people off, but I heartily submit that TOS is NOT sexist at all! It showed women as being sexy, but women are sexy! Aren't they? It also showed that they could do a number of professional jobs at a time when that was not expected of women. TOS showed women as being sexy AND smart AND capable. Women are sexy, smart and capable. Is it sexist to portray them as being all three? Janice Lester took over Kirk's body because women couldn't be starship commanders. That is because when GR portrayed a female number one, the women in the audience hated it!

Society has changed the rules on what women's roles are. (Was it inspired by Trek?) Don't try to place today's values in a 40 year old TV show. Accept it and celebrate it for the groundbreaking show that it was, not what you expect it to be by today's values. In another 40 years, we might look back and realize how silly it was for our society to try and shun femininity.

I understand that most everyone posting here will disagree with my opinion, but thanks for reading it anyway. Please don't be angered by my opinions just because they differs from yours. Remember, infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
Thanks

Gomtuu20:

Well, I'm not mad at your opinion. You made some interesting points. TOS is a product of its times, and yes, how it portrayed women was light-years ahead of how other shows portrayed women at the time. So it's both sexist and ground-breaking.

Good point about Kirk's ripped shirts. He certainly was considered eye-candy in his day, so yes, they exploited his good looks to keep female viewers. Spock was also a sex symbol, as the distant, hard-to-acquire foreigner.

Others here have pointed out how some of the modern ST shows are, at times, even more sexist -- witness pneumatic boobs in catsuits, for example!

Red Ranger

 

[Hermiod]

^I would argue that they said characters did not keep up with the audience. The male fans I have known over the years always seem to agree that the likes of Troi, Seven and T'Pol looked better when they wore normal uniforms.

I have yet to find a way to rationalise T'Pol's wardrobe choices after she officially joined Starfleet.

 

[jamestyler]

^I would argue that they said characters did not keep up with the audience. The male fans I have known over the years always seem to agree that the likes of Troi, Seven and T'Pol looked better when they wore normal uniforms.

It's the same with me - but I think there's a huge divide between the type of people I associate with and the general public.

It's not just with Seven and T'Pol (Troi's uniform seemed less ridiculous compared to the catsuits so I'm excluding her ) it's everything. It's almost as if the media world from magizines to movies have pushed their image of sexy and with that, pushed the line as far as they can every time, and it's just become idicuous and boring.

But show a picture of T'Pol to your random guy on the street.... usually some guy called Liam or Baz who when asked what they like to see in a woman they'll give a penis related answer... them the image goes staight to the spank bank.

 

[3D Master]

^I would argue that they said characters did not keep up with the audience. The male fans I have known over the years always seem to agree that the likes of Troi, Seven and T'Pol looked better when they wore normal uniforms.

I have yet to find a way to rationalise T'Pol's wardrobe choices after she officially joined Starfleet.

Ah, sorry, but that's not sexist.

Sexual, yes, but not sexist.

Sexist is saying that those women couldn't do this or that, just because they're women, (and I'm here I'm not talking about physically intense activities that the average woman simply isn't built to handle, but even mental things.)

The above women were not shown sexist at all, they were all shown to be capable and smart. Even Jadzia Dax did not "de-evolve" into a party girl, she remained every bit as smart and capable all throughout the series. What her enjoying a party, and implied the occasional thrist with a male showed, was another aspect of herself, and only showed how strong and unbiased she was really treated. (Indeed, as the reaction here showed, lots of people (especially women strangely) would call her a slut in this day and age, or for that matter dismiss her as a "party-girl" and thus apparently can't do anything.) She was not treated like promiscuous woman and ridiculed, DS9's crewmembers treated her like they treated a man that enjoys his parties and one-night stands; namely as a friend and with approval and no disapprovable. In that, DS9, showing that in the 90s and the early nineties was ahead of the curve in anti-sexism speaking. I haven't started seeing women act like that in other drama shows without it being considered bad or slutty until only just recently.

Now, you can say they're sexuality and bodies being shown of like cattle, (and I have to say, so juvinely) is wrong, and should be handled better, but they were most certainly not depicted sexistic.

 

[Vance]

No, I can definately cite both 7 of 9 (it's her fetish episode!) and T'Pol (sexual emotion addict!) as both degraded characters as their shows went on. Both characters were (and are) simply running jokes.

 

[3D Master]

No, I can definately cite both 7 of 9 (it's her fetish episode!) and T'Pol (sexual emotion addict!) as both degraded characters as their shows went on. Both characters were (and are) simply running jokes.

No, 7of9 did not have a fetish episode and was a well-developed character.

T'Pol though, is just a travesty, and it isn't because of sexism, she's simply badly written period.

Not to mention badly dressed.

Badly made up.

And the most horrible of all: bad hair. Who in their right minds, after seeing Vulcan women with long hair in TOS, decided that in the prequel, having a fantastically beautiful women, with fantastic long hair, she needs to have Spock hair, so you put all that beautiful hair UNDERNEATH A DAMNED SPOCK WIG!! GAAAAH!

Ugh.

Anyway, just because you have a character that is bad, evil, whimpering, no self-esteem, simpering toward the nearest man and also a woman, does not make it sexist. You can write a man that is bad, evil, wimpering, no self-esteem, simpering toward the nearest woman and it wouldn't be sexist either.

It would be sexist, if you claim that's the way all women/men are, or have all your men/women like that, and then go on to claim, or hint, that all women/men are like that, and their simpering toward the opposite gender the right way to act, because that gender is so much better.

THAT would be sexism. Just a character that is weak though, or has problems, or has sexual feelings and ideas, or is an addict does not sexism make.

If that were the case, every woman on television would have to be portrayed as a saint that can do no wrong. Which in fact, seems to be the way feminists want to us to think of women: these beautiful (but don't be sexual attracted to them, you male pig!), saintly people, that can do no wrong, only have sex when they're in love, would never stoop so low as to know lusty feelings, and being dependent, weak, maybe need help - not a one.

And anyone claiming or portraying a woman differently is sexist.

Now that's actually the sexism.

 

[ROBE]

In US and UK television there is a double standard when it comes to male and female nudity. It is acceptable to flash male nipples in a primetime show but not female. Continental European television has no such problems. Star Trek is therefore sexist against men.

 

[3D Master]

In US and UK television there is a double standard when it comes to male and female nudity. It is acceptable to flash male nipples in a primetime show but not female. Continental European television has no such problems. Star Trek is therefore sexist against men.

Well... US TELIVISION is sexist against men, and Star Trek is just forced to follow the rules.

 

[Vance]

US Television mantra...

Women are sex objects or mothers (and never both)
Men are bumbling idiots or villains (and can be both)

Sad really.

 

[2 of 10]

Not to mention the uniforms the females wear. The future may be less conservative, but in all practical sense this was a television show in 60s and you can pretty much assume those uniforms were meant for something more than futuristic social allowances.

I remember seeing an interview with one of the actresses in the 90s (I think it was the actress who played Rand). She was saying (paraphrased) "Everyone now says it was so sexist for them to make us wear those miniskirts. But we liked wearing them - they were sexy!"

In essence, the actresses enjoyed showing off their stuff - they weren't forced to wear them against their will, they thought it was great. Just because you're attractive, doesn't mean you should have to hide it. An asset is an asset - just because it's physical, doesn't make it sexist to enjoy it. They weren't ashamed of themselves, they were proud.

Don't be too quick to judge the intentions, motives, or attitudes behind actions that took place before your time.

The actress who played Janice Rand is Grace Lee Whitney, she came out with a book a few year back called, "The Longest Trek, My tour through the Galaxy" its a pretty good read...

 

[Maurice]

In US and UK television there is a double standard when it comes to male and female nudity. It is acceptable to flash male nipples in a primetime show but not female. Continental European television has no such problems. Star Trek is therefore sexist against men.

Utterly ignoring the fact that western culture treats women's breasts as sexual objects whereas men's chests are not generally looked on in the same manner.

 

[3D Master]

In US and UK television there is a double standard when it comes to male and female nudity. It is acceptable to flash male nipples in a primetime show but not female. Continental European television has no such problems. Star Trek is therefore sexist against men.

Utterly ignoring the fact that western culture treats women's breasts as sexual objects whereas men's chests are not generally looked on in the same manner.

Which of course, is the point.

It's Christian male-dominated heterosexual dogma that does not have them treat male chests as sex objects, and thus it can be shown. However, if you're attracted to men, a well-formed male chest is every bit as much a sex object than a well-formed female chest.

So, a naked male chest is just as sexually charged as a naked female chest, it's just some idiots who think they are so prim and proper don't realize it.

 

[Outpost4]

You tell Sulu to drop the sword and put on a shirt!

 

[3D Master]

You tell Sulu to drop the sword and put on a shirt!

Why?