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it's sexist!

Heh, I actually thought of everything all of you said(60s era, fashion, feminity, women being on the bridge in the first place, etc.) as I was writing it. I posted it anyway because I knew it'd be an interesting discussion even though I had massive holes in my own argument.

It still irked me, though, all things considered.
 
It's a bit of shock when you see it after a long break, or I'd imagine for the first time.

It's a glimpse into a long-gone era. Now you know what women got so pissy about in the whole feminist movement.

While all the cool stuff is true, Uhura on the bridge, Romulan commander.. it doesn't make all the other stuff disappear.
 
What do you think?

Being a total sexist swine myself I fully concur with Gene Roddenberry's views concerning the acceptable uses of women aboard a starship. :cool:

TGT

I've got an interview with GR with the Motion Picture soundtrack where he explains it with the wonderful line "I've been used as a sex object myself and I rather enjoyed it."

Maybe not an exact quote, but close ;)
 
Look at the history of nurses uniforms here in the UK. Nurses used to wear an old-fashioned very formal feminine uniform but they largely got rid of these for a more casual, practical and unisex uniform in the last few decades. This was because more militant feminist figures senior in nurses unions believed the old unifroms were holding women back and only by getting rid of them could nurses be taken seriously.

British television did a programme were modern nurses went back to a 1950s style nursing including the uniforms. Guess what, once the modern nurses got used to the old-fashioned uniforms, they actually liked them better than the modern ones. They made them feel more feminine and professional than the modern uniforms. Another interesting fact is the public no longer view nurses in the same high regard as they did when they dressed in the older uniforms.

A sad case of women being undermined by the very feminists who were trying to help them.
 
I watched "Who Mourns for Adonais" yesterday. McCoy said of Lt Palamas that some day she'd find the right man, and off she'd go, out of the service. I thought to myself, "Why on Earth would she have to do that?!"
 
I've got an interview with GR with the Motion Picture soundtrack where he explains it with the wonderful line "I've been used as a sex object myself and I rather enjoyed it."

Maybe not an exact quote, but close ;)

I have long made it a point to live my life according to The Great Bird's tenets (sans the weed and alcohol). So far so very good.

I watched "Who Mourns for Adonais" yesterday. McCoy said of Lt Palamas that some day she'd find the right man, and off she'd go, out of the service. I thought to myself, "Why on Earth would she have to do that?!"

The original NCC-1701 was thankfully not a children's playpen like her 24th century namesake.

TGT
 
I watched "Who Mourns for Adonais" yesterday. McCoy said of Lt Palamas that some day she'd find the right man, and off she'd go, out of the service. I thought to myself, "Why on Earth would she have to do that?!"

The original NCC-1701 was thankfully not a children's playpen like her 24th century namesake.

TGT

Children are another thing, but Bones was expressing the ol' 60s attitude that a woman's entire drive in life should be to find a husband so she can fulfill her destiny to be a housewife. Even then, they had the example of military personnel who marry and leave home for 6 months or a year. And even continue a military career with a family, at a base somewhere. A little progressive thinking on the writer's part, and he'd have never included that line.
 
The miniskirts were added to attract male viewers, plain and simple. In the end, this was a commercial TV show trying to attract the widest audience possible in order to make money.
Women themselves saw themselves in mostly traditionally female roles. Roddenberry noted in an interview (I have it on tape) that it was women who objected to a woman being the 2nd in command on the ship. Their reaction was "Who does she think she is?". It wasn't a case of women being kept down by men. Many women felt very comfortable in the roles that society assigned to them. Some didn't (hence the women's lib movement). It was only in the last half of the 20th century that women were duped into believing that they needed to be like men, develop a career on their own and shun any kind of femininity. Today, in most households where both the man and the woman work, women are still doing nearly all the housework. Instead of being in charge of the home and the children, women are now shackled with being a breadwinner too. I think they have been sold a bill of goods. They have been told that they must go out and conquer the world in order to be fulfilled, even though millions of women describe how being a stay at home mother and homemaker can be one of the most fulfilling experiences any human can have. Feminism today tells women that they are wasting their lives and living unfulfilled lives if they don't have a career outside of the home. They tell them they are losers if they stay at home. The feminist assert that women are being oppressed by men, but I submit that it is the feminists who are oppressors by making it socially unacceptable for women to follow a path other than pursuing a career outside of the home.
It is interesting that feminists are opposed to anything feminine. I think most people agree that it is women that have all the sex appeal. Men just aren't attractive. For example, if you picture a man wearing nothing but a pair of socks, this would either make you laugh, or disgust you, or both. A woman wearing only a pair of socks would be erotic. It is just the way it is. Women use their sexuality to get what they want. It has been this way since the beginning, and it will be this way until the end. Whether it is right or wrong, it is the way it is. Female singers use their sexuality to sell their music. In spite of a few notable exceptions, male singers generally have to rely on musical talent to sell their music. They may sell some music because of their looks, but they have to have some talent to back it up. That is not always true of a hot, sexy woman. An attractive male may appeal to half of the population, but an attractive female appeals to everyone. (Riker made a comment about how humans' last prejudice was for beauty in a NG episode.)
It is a mistake to think that women are not taken seriously if they are feminine or sexy. Actually, they are taken less seriously when they butch it up. I work with some very beautiful, very sexy women. Some of them I respect, some of them I don't respect. Some of them are competent, some are not. But I am sexually attracted to them all. What I am trying to say is that my opinion of them and my respect for them is based on their work performance, not on their appearance. Now, having said that, women's sexuality gives them a huge advantage in the workplace. If they are particularly sexy, they will use their allure to control male (and sometimes female) co-workers. This is not fair, but it is true. I suspect that this will not change in the 23rd or even the 24th century, if we make it that far. Was it right for the female crewmember to be ogled? No, but a good looking women is always going to be ogled. It doesn't mean she is incompetant, or incapable. It just means she sexually attracts men. The Trek women originally wore pants instead of the miniskirts. This would make the work environment much less sexually charged than a minidress. It seems to me, that if Trek were a depiction of reality, the women would not be wearing minis because it would be too distracting to the male crewmen, but even if they were wearing pants, their sexuality would still come through.
As far as the remark about how a crewwoman would get married and leave the service, this is a reflection of the expectations of the 60s. Women were really only in the workplace until they got married. After that, they would leave the work force and stay at home once they started having babies. In 2009 it is a real anachronism, but Trek wasn't make in 2009.
Was Trek against women? Obviously not. But it did acknowledge that women were sexual beings and celebrated it. Feminists today want to deny this, but it is the truth.
One way to sum up the relationship between men and women, not just in the Trek world, but in the real world is the following phrase:
"Men want it, women have it."
 
I watched "Who Mourns for Adonais" yesterday. McCoy said of Lt Palamas that some day she'd find the right man, and off she'd go, out of the service. I thought to myself, "Why on Earth would she have to do that?!"

You didn't notice? None of the crew members on the ship were married. Hell, April, in TAS, retired when he got married, along with his wife. As early as 'Balance of Terror' you see a young 'soon to be wed' couple looking and ending their careers to be married.

Kirk always felt that he had to either pursue a 'regular life' with a wife and kid.. or be in Star Fleet. There was no 'both'. That's why Sulu's choice was such a shocker to Kirk in Generations.

I don't think it's really that sexist as a resignation that the life of a starship crew-member and marriage just doesn't mix. Very much a reflection of military life even today, much less in the 1960s, which didn't make nearly the allowances it does now.
 
Gahhhhh! :eek: Paragraphs, please! Readability is important if you care to get your message out!
 
Sadly, this is part of why I've never actually sat down to watch TOS. In addition to the cheesy effects, I just can't take the way women are looked at in that series. The movies are a lot better for me in that regard, as is a lot of TOS lit.

Such a shame that what could've been really groundbreaking in treating women as equals ended up not doing that. I mean, Roddenberry broke ground on race relations; why couldn't he have done the same for gender relations? Or was that just because he was a guy and it didn't affect him?
 
Or was that just because he was a guy and it didn't affect him?

He was a guy in the 1960's.;)

However:

TOS had Uhura, and The Romulan Commander from Enterprise Incident...

TNG had the competent Beverly Crusher, Ensign Ro (whom was toned down) and Tasha Yar (who was killed off).

DS9 had a good balance with Kira, Jadzia, Leeta, Kai Winn...

VOY had Janeway, although 7 of 9 became popular not because of her acting...(showing that things don't always change).

ENT had T'Pol; who became popular based on her assets than her character (in fairness to Blalock, she pushed to have more than 'good looks' to her character). We also had Captain Hernandez.
 
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Or was that just because he was a guy and it didn't affect him?

He was a guy in the 1960's.;)

However:

TOS had Uhura, and The Romulan Commander from Enterprise Incident...

The Romulan Commander was pretty interesting.

But Uhura...man, I think a LOT of potential was missed in her. By putting her in a position that was basically treated like the 23rd-century equivalent of a secretary, not a lot was really done to further people's ideas of what it was women's "place" to be doing. I think I would've liked to have seen her doing something with a little more "clout" than that.

(Some of the novels, however, made admirable strides in rectifying the situation, really showing off her linguistics/cryptography knowledge and elevating her role beyond what was seen onscreen. But for something actually shown on-screen, I think I would've liked to have seen her doing something that would've back then been more traditionally "man's work," like, say, chief engineer, and nobody thinking anything unusual of it.)
 
TOS was as sexist a show as they come. It was a product of its time. I'm glad the new film will have the opportunity to dilute the blatant sexism of the 23rd century Trek universe by presenting us with a more truly egalitarian version of the future.
 
People,

What's interesting is how TOS is both sexist and ground-breaking. The outfits were the least of it -- the attitudes toward women and careers are quite apropos of the time. Things like questioning whether a woman could be a starship captain in Turnabout Intruder, or both Kirk & McCoy talking about how Carolyn Palamas would eventually meet the right man and leave Starfleet in Who Mourns for Adonis?

But again, as pointed out already, plenty of women had professional roles in TOS, like Uhura, Areel Shaw, Dr. Helen Noel, Dr. Janet Wallace, and the Romulan Commander. So it's a fascinating time capsule of changing attitudes toward women. I must say, I loved some of the revealing outfits, my favorites being Uhura's mirror universe outfit and Orion nutjob Marta's skimpy number!

Certainly, TNG had a healthier attitude toward women generally, as well as married relationships -- witness O'Brien and Keiko. But it does seem life in Starfleet in both the 23rd and 24th centuries is hard on a married couple.

Red Ranger
 
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