This may come back to the idea that Sidious’ scheme was really the Force’s way of preparing for the Vong. At that point, there were enough arms to where any outcome didn’t matter.
It's actually astonishing that the Jabba/Leia scenes in ROTJ didn't cause a scandal, back in 1983
- Thread starter Unimatrix Q
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Anakin was obviously very uncomfortable with killing Dooku, both before and after the fact. But Palpatine gave him a direct order. To Anakin, the Chancellor's orders probably superseded whatever the Jedi Council may have had in mind for Dooku, as the Jedi were in the service of the Republic and the Chancellor for the war, and Anakin always wanted to be in the Chancellor's good graces.
And yes, the Jedi Order messed up in a lot of ways in the Prequel Trilogy days. To me it shows that they had lost their way.
Kor
And yes, the Jedi Order messed up in a lot of ways in the Prequel Trilogy days. To me it shows that they had lost their way.
Kor
That Palpatine gave him an order that was counter to what should be done to try to end the war as quickly as possible should have been a big red flag to Anakin. "Why do you want me to kill the person who's the best lead we've had to ending the war in (weeks/months/years)?"
This is rationale thinking. Anakin was not rationale.
No, he's not an idiot. He was an emotionally driven self centered person. He didn't have opportunity to stop and think.
What he "should" have done assumes the ability to be rational. Anakin struggled with that, consumed with fear, and being presented as a hero without fear. He feared losing Obi-wan, Padme, even not being able to save clones bothered him. The man was not rational. After 3 years of service in the Clone Wars, trusting Palpatine, he would have just moved to the next task.
Or even rational...
Anakin did hesitate, but by that point Palpatine had spent years conditioning Anakin to trust him and submit to his will, and encouraging him to give into his anger and vengeance. Killing Dooku was the crucial test of whether he'd succeeded. When Anakin obeyed and killed Dooku, that was the moment he chose the Dark Side and was committed to the path of becoming Darth Vader. You see the same thing a generation later (or earlier, from the audience's POV) when Palpatine urges Luke to kill Vader. If Luke had given in, he would've fallen to the Dark Side. Luke rejected the temptation, but Anakin succumbed, largely because Palpatine had a tighter hold on his loyalty.
Hm. I've never really perceived the Dooku moment as the point of no return, but perhaps I was being overly-optimistic.
I feel as though those who've only seen the movies may be interpreting matters differently from those who have a more complete understanding of events.
I feel as though those who've only seen the movies may be interpreting matters differently from those who have a more complete understanding of events.
Killing Dooku was stepping onto the slippery slope for sure, but it wasn't the point of no return. The point of no return was turning on Mace.
I would recommend reading the novel at least. Provides interesting insight from different characters points of view.
Treating Anakin as a perfectly rational human who was capable of reflective thinking is being generous.
At the end, Luke should not have forgiven his father.
Maybe not the point of no return (since, I mean, he did belatedly return in Return of the Jedi), but a crossroad, a moment where Anakin had to choose between two paths. If he'd defied Palpatine and let Dooku live, it would've meant that Palpatine had failed to corrupt him -- and it probably would have saved the Republic, because Dooku, upon realizing that his master had betrayed him, would probably have revealed that Palpatine was Sidious. But instead, Anakin did what Palpatine wanted, and that was the moment that put events on the path toward Anakin's fall and that of the Republic.
I would love to see a What if Star Wars novel where Anakin didn't turned to the dark side
What if Anakin had stayed in the Council chamber like Mace had told him to? Mace seems to have gotten the upper hand over Palpatine. Palpatine would never submit to arrest, so Mace probably would have no choice but to end him. Like we almost saw happen.
And then does the senate, not understanding all this business about the Dark Side and the Sith, experience uproarious upheaval because the Jedi unilaterally executed their Chancellor, and consequently push for the Jedi Order to be outlawed or something? Or do more systems side with the Separatists, and the war drags on?
Does Palpatine show up a few years later, resurrected in a clone body on Exegol?
Kor
And then does the senate, not understanding all this business about the Dark Side and the Sith, experience uproarious upheaval because the Jedi unilaterally executed their Chancellor, and consequently push for the Jedi Order to be outlawed or something? Or do more systems side with the Separatists, and the war drags on?
Does Palpatine show up a few years later, resurrected in a clone body on Exegol?
Kor
Sounds about right. One of the best fan fictions I read had a similar occurence, though not with the outlawing of the Jedi, but only because Bail Organa is elected to the office of Supreme Chancellor.What if Anakin had stayed in the Council chamber like Mace had told him to? Mace seems to have gotten the upper hand over Palpatine. Palpatine would never submit to arrest, so Mace probably would have no choice but to end him. Like we almost saw happen.
And then does the senate, not understanding all this business about the Dark Side and the Sith, experience uproarious upheaval because the Jedi unilaterally executed their Chancellor, and consequently push for the Jedi Order to be outlawed or something? Or do more systems side with the Separatists, and the war drags on?
Does Palpatine show up a few years later, resurrected in a clone body on Exegol?
Kor
Honestly, I could see the Jedi being outlawed, and the Order moving to the Outer Rim Territories, possibly some searching for a new home while avoiding the Republic, or relocating to Tython as a bit of a plea agreement.
Ah, okay. I can get behind this. It definitely showed how far gone Anakin was that he was willing to kill someone who not only had surrendered (and had been literally if not figuratively disarmed) but doubtless had intelligence vital to the outcome of the war.
What if Anakin had stayed in the Council chamber like Mace had told him to? Mace seems to have gotten the upper hand over Palpatine. Palpatine would never submit to arrest, so Mace probably would have no choice but to end him. Like we almost saw happen.
And then does the senate, not understanding all this business about the Dark Side and the Sith, experience uproarious upheaval because the Jedi unilaterally executed their Chancellor, and consequently push for the Jedi Order to be outlawed or something? Or do more systems side with the Separatists, and the war drags on?
Does Palpatine show up a few years later, resurrected in a clone body on Exegol?
Kor
My recollection of the novel (which I've skimmed but not read) is that Palpatine submits a doctored recording of the conversation in his office to the senate as evidence that the Jedi intended to take him into custody or such, justifying his use of Order 66 (which you'd think would have required some additional level of approval, but there we are...).
Which begs the question of whether even the senate just getting an accurate recording of what happened would have made any difference. In other words, how far would Palpatine and Vader have gotten if the senate had openly opposed them? Palpatine clearly had the ability to issue commands to the Clone Army directly, but would they have killed all the senators if Palpatine had issued such an order? Did the senate retain any power for itself, or was it already basically a puppet government by this point?
(sigh) The Jedi really weren't very smart about this.
"doctored" is not quite the right term. Palpatine had an audio recorder running, screamed "help. Treason!" or something to that effect, then used his lightsaber to destroy the microphone before battling the Jedi. So, the only way a record would work would have been video evidence of Palpatine attacking.
Nope, they were not.
It wasn't either of the two times he slaughtered numerous children?
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