It was the Dawn of the Third Age of Mankind
- Thread starter Mal
- Start date
Just to jump in for a moment (and no doubt put both feet in it).
I agree completely with what Reverend is saying about
"Of course the attitudes of a sometimes vocal minority on the internet probably isn't representative of all B5 fans, but I think it should be corrected when encountered.”
I’d even go further and say they’re most certainly not representative. But on balance, the information *currently* available on-line does leave a newbie with a skewed representation of how involved in the various processes of creating a show jms was. And the reason for that is how some fans represent things and tend to focus on him when just about any topic is raised relating to the show.
Why that happens is anyone’s guess and trying to pin a single reason on it would be trying to simplify a rather complex situation
B5Scrolls was so very close to becoming something like B5Tech. It was only an exercise to learn a bit about putting a web page together, but I did stick with it for a little while and change the focus of the site for a number of reasons. One of which (and I could never find it again after reading it) was someone on a forum suggest FI and Thornton were being subtly written out the history of B5. Of course that is impossible, but it did get me curious as the first thought I had was who the hell is Ron Thornton
(Though I wouldn’t say it’s focus is rather narrow – but then I would) It does still have a lot of content relating to the ships – but not in a ‘how many toilets does a white star have’ way. As Stone Cold Sisco noticed with the John Copeland interview it also goes into other areas (mostly focused around a few aspects surrounding the EFX in general) – and the reason for that was to try and provide answers to questions I’d read folks discussing (and arguing about), for years. It’s why I asked Josh Prikyrl (for instance) why the size of vessels would jump all over the place in some animated sequences.
http://themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen1_08_8
Compare that with a reply from George Johnsen which can be found over at the archive on JMSNews.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-11140
I don’t know if others (who worked on the show) ever provided an explanation, but personally I’d rather have the likes of the John C and Josh Prikyrl replies on the topic, which treat the reader/fan as an adult. Reading slightly condescending replies from the likes of Johnsen (and yes, even jms occasionally) was another reason for creating the site (though maybe he was just joking around with the fans somehow, I honestly don’t know
Anyway, this post is not meant to be an ‘ad’ for the site or an explanation as to why it was put together, though it’s starting to sound like. It was just to really say that folks connected with the ‘fan community’ for some time probably have difficulty understanding why Reverend said what he did. But as a newbie, I too was left with the impression that jms was intimately involved with just about everything relating to the show – so much so it just seemed silly at times.
And by the way Omaha, (again) nowhere on the site does it ever claim jms took all the credit. Some of his fans do that.
http://themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen4_14_4
(and others have no option but to repeat them)
I agree completely with what Reverend is saying about
"Of course the attitudes of a sometimes vocal minority on the internet probably isn't representative of all B5 fans, but I think it should be corrected when encountered.”
I’d even go further and say they’re most certainly not representative. But on balance, the information *currently* available on-line does leave a newbie with a skewed representation of how involved in the various processes of creating a show jms was. And the reason for that is how some fans represent things and tend to focus on him when just about any topic is raised relating to the show.
Why that happens is anyone’s guess and trying to pin a single reason on it would be trying to simplify a rather complex situation
B5Scrolls was so very close to becoming something like B5Tech. It was only an exercise to learn a bit about putting a web page together, but I did stick with it for a little while and change the focus of the site for a number of reasons. One of which (and I could never find it again after reading it) was someone on a forum suggest FI and Thornton were being subtly written out the history of B5. Of course that is impossible, but it did get me curious as the first thought I had was who the hell is Ron Thornton
(Though I wouldn’t say it’s focus is rather narrow – but then I would) It does still have a lot of content relating to the ships – but not in a ‘how many toilets does a white star have’ way. As Stone Cold Sisco noticed with the John Copeland interview it also goes into other areas (mostly focused around a few aspects surrounding the EFX in general) – and the reason for that was to try and provide answers to questions I’d read folks discussing (and arguing about), for years. It’s why I asked Josh Prikyrl (for instance) why the size of vessels would jump all over the place in some animated sequences.
http://themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen1_08_8
Compare that with a reply from George Johnsen which can be found over at the archive on JMSNews.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-11140
I don’t know if others (who worked on the show) ever provided an explanation, but personally I’d rather have the likes of the John C and Josh Prikyrl replies on the topic, which treat the reader/fan as an adult. Reading slightly condescending replies from the likes of Johnsen (and yes, even jms occasionally) was another reason for creating the site (though maybe he was just joking around with the fans somehow, I honestly don’t know
Anyway, this post is not meant to be an ‘ad’ for the site or an explanation as to why it was put together, though it’s starting to sound like. It was just to really say that folks connected with the ‘fan community’ for some time probably have difficulty understanding why Reverend said what he did. But as a newbie, I too was left with the impression that jms was intimately involved with just about everything relating to the show – so much so it just seemed silly at times.
And by the way Omaha, (again) nowhere on the site does it ever claim jms took all the credit. Some of his fans do that.
http://themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen4_14_4
(and others have no option but to repeat them)
Last edited:
Eyes
None of the rest of Eyes is very interesting. Col Ari Ben-Hitler is way over the top. And Lennier assembles Mr. Garibaldi's motorcycle. Whop-di-fracking-doo.
It's not easy to have your dreams snatched away just because you're different.
Were Telepaths JMS' stand-in for gays? Here's what happened to Mr. Grey (aka Weyoun):
When I was 16, I applied to Air-dome, and was accepted. Then my talent manifested itself the first month; telepaths aren't allowed in regular military service so I was expelled.
Should telepaths be allowed to serve in Earthforce openly, the way they were by the time of Crusade, or should they have a separate but equal Psy-Corps of their own? With Congress recently acting on the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, 1x16 Eyes suddenly becomes relevant once again (and puts a whole new spin on Ivanova and Talia's relationship, both the hot lesbian sex, and the fact that Ivanova was a latent telepath...)
None of the rest of Eyes is very interesting. Col Ari Ben-Hitler is way over the top. And Lennier assembles Mr. Garibaldi's motorcycle. Whop-di-fracking-doo.
No, it got them a motorcycle to use on the show for free.
Actually, there are conflicting reports. Some (I believe Jeff Willerth is one) says that they got paid to use the bike. JMS has reported that there was no money exchanged, that they asked for the use of it in exchange for it being named. At this late date, it hardly matters. And at least it was better done than the current-day embedded ads on prime time.
Jan
Maybe I'm just thick but it never occurred to me that the bike was a piece of product placement. I guess I just took it as a bit of a hammy way of saying "looks, it's the future because motorbikes are antiques and electric guitars are museum pieces." Like something out of 'Demolition Man'...which now that I think about it, probably was a load of product placement too.
I meant narrow in the sense that it only deals with the VFX people and their contributions, particularly the design and building of the ship models (which I find way more interesting than how many trans-phase-meta-wotsit marbles it has or how thick it's armour is.) What that dose cover a lot of material, in the context of the wider B5 universe, while wholly worthwhile and completely valid; it's still just a fraction of the total, which includes things like story, character, timelines, spoo, cities, planets, alien races, governments, spoo, props, histories, technology, more spoo, costumes, novels, comics, short stories and so on and so forth.
Trust me, you spend a good 18 months contributing to a wikia and you get a whole new perception on just how much material there is to cover. Even though it's now in a much better shape than it's ever been it still has MASSIVE holes and I have a to-do list that's giving 'war and peace' a run for it's money!
I meant narrow in the sense that it only deals with the VFX people and their contributions, particularly the design and building of the ship models (which I find way more interesting than how many trans-phase-meta-wotsit marbles it has or how thick it's armour is.) What that dose cover a lot of material, in the context of the wider B5 universe, while wholly worthwhile and completely valid; it's still just a fraction of the total, which includes things like story, character, timelines, spoo, cities, planets, alien races, governments, spoo, props, histories, technology, more spoo, costumes, novels, comics, short stories and so on and so forth.
Trust me, you spend a good 18 months contributing to a wikia and you get a whole new perception on just how much material there is to cover. Even though it's now in a much better shape than it's ever been it still has MASSIVE holes and I have a to-do list that's giving 'war and peace' a run for it's money!
Sorry, I was on holiday last week....
Legacies
We all know that the Minbari war was a result of the Death of Dukat at the hands of trigger-happy humans as a result of a misunderstanding: the Warrior caste approach with gun-ports open to show they approach open-handed; the humans just saw the open gun-ports and panicked! Know that, it's really awesome to see these pieces set up in 1x17 Legacies, which also has the benefit of introducing one of B5's best characters: Neroon.
I can live without the whole Talia/Ivanova B-story. Even using Alisa Beldon to scan Delenn and discover what actually happened to Bremer's body seemed somewhat of a cheat.
Besides the awesome carrion-eater humor, the highlight of the episode has to be the end. Delenn orders Neroon to apologize to Sinclair, and what ensues may be one of the greatest scenes in all of B5.
You talk like a Minbari, Commander.
Indeed. Indeed.
Legacies
Franklin: Oh, by the way, you know what they say Narn tastes like?
Michael: Yeah. Chicken. Man I really need a vacation.
Talia and Ivanova play my-two-mommies, fighting over a budding telepath, and Delenn plays hide-the-corpse with Neroon.Michael: Yeah. Chicken. Man I really need a vacation.
We all know that the Minbari war was a result of the Death of Dukat at the hands of trigger-happy humans as a result of a misunderstanding: the Warrior caste approach with gun-ports open to show they approach open-handed; the humans just saw the open gun-ports and panicked! Know that, it's really awesome to see these pieces set up in 1x17 Legacies, which also has the benefit of introducing one of B5's best characters: Neroon.
I can live without the whole Talia/Ivanova B-story. Even using Alisa Beldon to scan Delenn and discover what actually happened to Bremer's body seemed somewhat of a cheat.
Besides the awesome carrion-eater humor, the highlight of the episode has to be the end. Delenn orders Neroon to apologize to Sinclair, and what ensues may be one of the greatest scenes in all of B5.
There was no cause for me to attack you Commander, even less cause for me to threaten this station...
The sound track playing in the background is pitch-perfect. The dialogue makes my hair stand. The whole hour is more than worth it just for this. This is B5: sublime.
You talk like a Minbari, Commander.
Indeed. Indeed.
1x18, 19 A Voice in the Wilderness Parts 1 & 2
Which of his wives was this? I'm guessing Mariel. Although from Londo's shrill impression (Londo! Looondo!) it might also be Timov. Maybe Adira reminds Londo of a younger prettier Timov? It would go a long way towards explaining why he chooses to keep Timov out of his three wives.
Londo spends much of the episode spreading happiness around the station (it is a terrible responsibility, but he has learned to live with it). Here Londo is cheering up Garibaldi, who is distracted to no end because he has no idea whether or not Lise is safe.
Ah Lise. The future Lise Hampton Edgars Garibaldi. Michael met her on Mars - he had been fired from his last four jobs - and she helped him get through life. Plus she is just so fantastically hot it's just unbelievable. That hair...
In any case, Lise stayed on Mars when Sinclair asked Garibaldi to join him on B5 (we'll see the scene in Babylon Squared), and they haven't spoken in three years. Now Mars is fighting for independence, something they won't achieve for another three seasons, after the Civil War. But it's amazing watching the seeds of that day planted here so far in advance.
Garibaldi comes across as very human in this episode. Not some sort of super-professional; just a guy. When a dude in the Zocolo says Nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark, Garibaldi just snaps. Later, when he's home with some pizza, Jeff stops by. Garibaldi is on the edge - with Lise - with the planet about to blow. What am I supposed to do, arrest it?!
Both Garibaldi and Sinclair have deep ties to Mars. Later, Sheridan will have pretty much the opposite relationship - he was there to put down the food riots - so it is interesting that Mars gets it's freedom thanks in part to Star Killer.
Garibaldi knows about a Psi Corps establishment on Mars, and asks Talia to help him get through to Lise. And she actually tries to help him (maybe she hopes he will stop stalking her!). It of course it does not work, and Garibaldi is left hanging until the very end of the episode when we learn...
Meanwhile, Londo spreads joy to the Minbari, completing a successful (and pleasant) trade negotiations with Delenn. And of course, his most famous scene in the whole two-parter involves Londo flying Draal & Co. to the planet:
Ivanova's quips remain annoying.
Part II of the episode reminds me just how much I miss Picard.
Patrick Stewart was recently knighted, and I've been going back to watch a few of the old TNG episodes. Now there was a leader! On the TV show, Picard was a diplomat par excellence (not the action-hero the movies made him out to be). Poor Sinclair just pales in comparison. Captain Pierce of the Hyperion (the first in a long-line of Black B5 commanders) plays a wonderful jar-head, but Sinclair lacks the fineness to deal with him as a diplomat would. Instead, Sinclair resorts to calling HQ and complaining that someone is stepping on his authority over the sector, and then he tricks Pierce concocting some fictitious "jamming device." Oh if only Sinclair had bothered to watch TNG's Drumhead or The Wounded, then - then - he would really understand how to deal with intra-service politics.
Sinclair is also pretty eager to start shooting at Pierce?!? Maybe the Earth Civil War was a long time coming...
In the end, Draal is plugged into the great machine, the great machine destroys the aliens that had come to take over, and Captain Pierce sends his "regrets" if he overstepped his authority.
And Garibaldi finds out Lise is married. Man, that guy needs it a drink. Make it a water, straight up.
Water - fascinating. I never touch the stuff myself.
Londo's first wife was a stripper. He met her at a strip club as a young Centauri. He was having a rough time, but went for his usual dance anyway. He was so caught up with his predicament he didn't actually see any of the performance. Eventually a stripper came right up to him, leaned over, her ample bosom spilling over into his line of sight. She said: "Whatever it is, it can't be that bad." And then she kissed him on the forehead. He married her straight away!
Which of his wives was this? I'm guessing Mariel. Although from Londo's shrill impression (Londo! Looondo!) it might also be Timov. Maybe Adira reminds Londo of a younger prettier Timov? It would go a long way towards explaining why he chooses to keep Timov out of his three wives.
Londo spends much of the episode spreading happiness around the station (it is a terrible responsibility, but he has learned to live with it). Here Londo is cheering up Garibaldi, who is distracted to no end because he has no idea whether or not Lise is safe.
Ah Lise. The future Lise Hampton Edgars Garibaldi. Michael met her on Mars - he had been fired from his last four jobs - and she helped him get through life. Plus she is just so fantastically hot it's just unbelievable. That hair...
In any case, Lise stayed on Mars when Sinclair asked Garibaldi to join him on B5 (we'll see the scene in Babylon Squared), and they haven't spoken in three years. Now Mars is fighting for independence, something they won't achieve for another three seasons, after the Civil War. But it's amazing watching the seeds of that day planted here so far in advance.
Garibaldi comes across as very human in this episode. Not some sort of super-professional; just a guy. When a dude in the Zocolo says Nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark, Garibaldi just snaps. Later, when he's home with some pizza, Jeff stops by. Garibaldi is on the edge - with Lise - with the planet about to blow. What am I supposed to do, arrest it?!
Both Garibaldi and Sinclair have deep ties to Mars. Later, Sheridan will have pretty much the opposite relationship - he was there to put down the food riots - so it is interesting that Mars gets it's freedom thanks in part to Star Killer.
Garibaldi knows about a Psi Corps establishment on Mars, and asks Talia to help him get through to Lise. And she actually tries to help him (maybe she hopes he will stop stalking her!). It of course it does not work, and Garibaldi is left hanging until the very end of the episode when we learn...
Meanwhile, Londo spreads joy to the Minbari, completing a successful (and pleasant) trade negotiations with Delenn. And of course, his most famous scene in the whole two-parter involves Londo flying Draal & Co. to the planet:
Now, eh, landing thrusters. Landing thrusters? Hm, uh, if I were a landing thruster which one of these would I be?
Londo pockets a favor from Delenn in the bargain. And that is how Vir eventually finds himself on Minbar and leader of the local chapter of the Narn-underground-railroad. Wow, everything just works.
Ivanova's quips remain annoying.
Part II of the episode reminds me just how much I miss Picard.
Patrick Stewart was recently knighted, and I've been going back to watch a few of the old TNG episodes. Now there was a leader! On the TV show, Picard was a diplomat par excellence (not the action-hero the movies made him out to be). Poor Sinclair just pales in comparison. Captain Pierce of the Hyperion (the first in a long-line of Black B5 commanders) plays a wonderful jar-head, but Sinclair lacks the fineness to deal with him as a diplomat would. Instead, Sinclair resorts to calling HQ and complaining that someone is stepping on his authority over the sector, and then he tricks Pierce concocting some fictitious "jamming device." Oh if only Sinclair had bothered to watch TNG's Drumhead or The Wounded, then - then - he would really understand how to deal with intra-service politics.
Sinclair is also pretty eager to start shooting at Pierce?!? Maybe the Earth Civil War was a long time coming...
In the end, Draal is plugged into the great machine, the great machine destroys the aliens that had come to take over, and Captain Pierce sends his "regrets" if he overstepped his authority.
And Garibaldi finds out Lise is married. Man, that guy needs it a drink. Make it a water, straight up.
^Indeed. Remember his line from 'In The Beginning' about having four wives in his lifetime, not three?
We can only presume that it's much easier to divorce a woman from the lesser houses than if they're from a Noble House or a Great House.
*thinks*
...there's Orcha, orange juice a Shirley Temple is mentioned as I recall and there's whatever the Minbari drink. I could never decide if Hot Jala was alcoholic or not, but I suppose given that it's a Centauri drink there's a pretty good chance it is.
We can only presume that it's much easier to divorce a woman from the lesser houses than if they're from a Noble House or a Great House.
*thinks*
...there's Orcha, orange juice a Shirley Temple is mentioned as I recall and there's whatever the Minbari drink. I could never decide if Hot Jala was alcoholic or not, but I suppose given that it's a Centauri drink there's a pretty good chance it is.
Well, some time in the second season, they'll rediscover orange juice.
He was even more explicit about it in "The Long Dark Night of Londo Mollari."
"I've been dead many times, before. Dead to my first wife, the only one I ever truly loved. My family said that I had married beneath my station, and that if I did not divorce her, that I would be dead to them, to the family title, position, money. I remember the look in her eyes when I told her. I died again that night."
That's right! Where was that from...
Oh yeah! What was the exact quote...
Ha! That's why I love TrekBBS!
Well, there must be other drinks...
Actually, I presume that Jala one of the few non-alcoholic Centauri drinks, as Londo makes some for Delenn and Draal when they come to visit him in A Voice in the Wilderness (right after he sings the Hockey-Pockey).
But surely some human non-alcoholic drink survives...
Captain Happy Orange Juice Sheridan!
But you're right, we do mostly have to wait till Season 2, as in S1, even Talia also pretty much sticks to water.
FWIW, by Season 5, Garibaldi has not only re-discovered booze, he's also discovered Coffee (Ivanova's drink of choice once Takashima mysteriously disappeared...)
"In my life, I had four wives. I cared for them all deeply. But I loved Centauri Prime."
That's what confused me, since I'm pretty sure the 'Dining on Babylon 5' book has it as an alcoholic drink. Perhaps Draal and Delenn didn't actually drink it and politely set it aside knowing full well what was in there. Londo apparently didn't know how Minbari react to alcohol until later that year ('The Quality of Mercy'.)
I suppose you could argue that given the scarcity of water in space and certain off-world colonies like Mars, getting to drink pure water is - for those that live and work off of Earth - quite a luxury. Hell, I bet bottled mineral water would cost quite a bit that far out, much more than the recycled stuff that was originally mined out of the Europan and Ganymedian glaciers or distilled from rogue comets.
Remember that the 'Dining on Babylon 5' book is the Human edition and may not be entirely accurate. JMS said:
So while perhaps jalwah needs to be fermented, it's equally likely that Chef Briggs-Wallace was taking artistic license.
Jan
^Makes sense to me. Perhaps Jalwah extract (whichever part of the tree they use) is an herbal intoxicant rather than an alcohol based one? It's not too implausible to presume that rather potent looking mix of liquor is the closest one can get to the taste and potency of Jala with Earth ingredients. Or perhaps more accurately, mimicking for humans the equivalent effect that it has on Centauri biochemistry.
Although we see the folks on B5 mostly drinking water if they're not drinking alcohol beverages, soft drinks do exist if we were to go by the print-out for Garabaldi's "food plan, not diet".
The graphic made up by the art department, as seen in one of the B5 magazines, iirc, lists that all Fanta products and other soft drinks are to be avoided.
Similar threads
