It was the Dawn of the Third Age of Mankind

[Reverend]

The Vorlons DID visit Centauri Prime and did do a little DNA musical chairs, hence the existence of Centauri teeps. They just never got much of a foothold in their psyche as they did with other races.

As for Morden asking humans "the" question, I rather assumed he'd done that already prior to visiting B5. I suppose that could have gone down after B5, I'm not sure there's a way to tell, except perhaps the customs guard commenting on the fact that Morden's identicard hadn't been scanned in a while.

 

[JoeD80]

The Vorlons DID visit Centauri Prime and did do a little DNA musical chairs, hence the existence of Centauri teeps. They just never got much of a foothold in their psyche as they did with other races.

I'm thinking the Centauri already had their telepaths before the Vorlons ever tried. The Centauri telepaths are quite advanced compared to the other races (communication between planets); so what would the Vorlons be able to give them?

 

[David cgc]

That had been my theory, too. A handful of races, including the Centauri, had naturally evolving telepaths (and that's why the Centauri telepaths weren't quite standard, with their strong abilities for precognition, and with virtually the entire population being latents in that respect). The Centauri infant that was being tinkered with by the Vorlons when they enhanced Lyta could go either way, either with them following up on their own work, or examining the Centauri to see what they could apply for their own projects. Unfortunately, the short story "The Nautilus Coil," a sidequel to the Psi-Corps trilogy, took that idea out back and shot it in the head like a lame horse, by explaining in disturbing detail exactly what the Vorlons had to do to get telepaths.

Let me put it this way; before I read that story, I thought the Vorlons and the Shadows were both assholes, but the Vorlons were at least a bit more towards the "good guy" section. Afterword, I thought they were worse than the Shadows. Eventually, I read the last book of the Technomage trilogy, and found out the Shadows were, in fact, also responsible for incredibly horrifying crimes against nature, so balance was once again restored.

 

[Reverend]

'The Nautilus Coil' also explained why you can't have naturally evolved sentient telepaths.
In a nutshell: sentience is usually achieved by increased intelligence through tool use, problem solving and the necessity to manipulate then environment. Once a race starts doing that, they essentially stop evolving because they're working against the process of natural selection.
On the other hand, a species that naturally evolves psi ability cannot then develop sentience because they don't need it. When an animal can sense the thoughts of a predator poised to kill it and instinctually implant in it's mind an image of it running off in one direction, or telepathically command a prey animal to lie down and let itself be eaten then they don't need to make spears, or clothes or huts or expend any thought on problem solving. They just need to think at things and they obey.

Plus the first Psi Corp book has the first Centauri Ambassador to Earth mention that their telepaths first manifested when they first started venturing into space (as was the case with most races with teeps.)

Then there's this post from JMS: -

. . .the Vorlons had a very minimal affect on the Centauri, they never were able
to get a really strong foothold there.

jms
​

So yes, the Vorlons made Centauri teeps.

I'm thinking the Centauri already had their telepaths before the Vorlons ever tried. The Centauri telepaths are quite advanced compared to the other races (communication between planets); so what would the Vorlons be able to give them?

That trait was only observed under very particular circumstances, a group of teeps raised together and linked 24/7. I doubt just any Centauri teep could pull it off, at least not consciously. But then there's Ivanova, a P1 or P2 who felt Sheridan's death from half a galaxy away, so distance doesn't always mean much as far as telepathy is concerned.
I think the second Psi Corp book touches on this oddity and it's apparent dependence on line-of-sight; one of Bester's teachers (a P12) mentions a search and rescue for a missing EVA miner in the asteroid belt and that as soon as he could see him (as a tiny dot, kilometers away) it was as strong a sense as if he was in the room and conversely, he'd once been in a room where a blip was hiding in the closet (ie, out of sight) and he didn't sense a whisper.
If I remember it right the book suggests that the only real limitation on psi ability is the ability of the mind that's using it and how it interprets what it senses. Creatures like us with a focus on sensing things visually and auditorially consequently interpret much of what they sense telepathically as sound and images.

 

[RandyS]

How do we know the Shadows weren't manipulating things (especially through the PsiCorps) for Clark to get into office?

Clark's anti-alien bigotry for one thing.

 

[Mal]

Then there's this post from JMS: -

. . .the Vorlons had a very minimal affect on the Centauri, they never were able
to get a really strong foothold there.

jms
​

So yes, the Vorlons made Centauri teeps.

Um, with all due respect, I think JMS there is pretty clearly saying that the Vorlons did not have anything to do with creating Centauri telepaths.

 

[Reverend]

"Minimal effect" is not the same as "no effect" and "never able to get a really strong foothold" doesn't mean "didn't get a foothold at all".
So to me that says the Vorlons did visit Centauri Prime and had "somewhat of an effect" and did get "a foothold" on the Centauri. It just wasn't anywhere near as strong or as extensive as what they did with the humans and Minbari.

That plus the Psi Corps books and 'The Nautilus Coil' (written by the same bloke) are pretty clear on the matter and their canonicity is very well established. Add to that the Centauri fetus on the Vorlon homeworld and I'd say the balance of evidence is rather strongly in favour of the Vorlons being responsible for ALL younger race telepaths, including the Centauri.

While we're on the subject, do we know which races do and don't have teeps? Obviously humans, Minbari, Narns (past tense), Centauri but was there any mention of the like of Brakiri, Drazi, Yolu and Hyach? I think one of the aforementioned fetuses looked like it might be Drazi, or possibly Grome. The background info fron the Alien Guide and the CDROM have both the Gaim and the pak'ma'ra being teepless IIRC. They also stated that the Abbai all have a weak empathic ability, so we can presume they're something of a failed experiment. Perhaps the race's gender imbalance diluted the gene too much, gave everyone a P1 or P2 equivalent ability?

 

[Mal]

TKO

One of these days Garibaldi, you gotta learn to watch your back.
​

So Garibaldi and Walker Smith (the bravest of his "race") head out for burgers and beers at a place that reminds them of this other joint where the waitresses all had three, uh,

Drunk again Uncle Yosef
​

Susan's rabbi comes to the station to help her sit shiva. She is Russian. And annoying. But in this episode, not quite as much. The rabbi explains to Sinclair that Susan has traveled a hard road - and it certainly seems that she has. Her mom was a telepath, and committed suicide. Her brother was killed in the Earth-Minbari war (which we see in In the Beginning), and now her father, who she wasn't speaking with, is dead. Plus, she's Russian.

As the rabbi is leaving, Susan has a flashback of her father's death (isn't this a little early in the series to start having flashbacks?). The Shiva itself is a little boring. But I guess wakes aren't exactly interesting. And Susan crying seems just about as fake as Susan having sex.

Walker fucks up his intro to the Mu-Tai master, coming off as arrogant (which he is, though endearingly so). He buys Michael and himself tickets for the championship match, and we get a look inside Babylon 5 kick-boxing. I suppose this is the part of the episode that gives 1x14 TKO such a bad name. There are some awesome kick-boxing stories out there - Bloodsport comes to mind. Even in scifi, nBSG did a great job in Unfinished Business staging boxing fights. Maybe it's the production values, though somehow, I don't think it takes a whole lot of money to depict kick-boxing. It's not like JMS doesn't get the honor-thing either; he does a decent job of that in Kinves. It's just that something about the episode is off, and I can't quite put my finger on it.

JMS plays the "first human" thing in an interesting way. Making Walker black plays interestingly when the alien says that people from his "race" don't fight in the Mui-Tai. But I think that's a little easy. Actually, the alien says that humans don't respect the ways of aliens (see Arizona), that they don't understand the long and ancient custom. In that way, Walker might be considered the typical "Ugly American" boorish tourist type.

All in all, TKO is one of the few truly mediocre outings in the series. Probably because not much of it has any larger consequence. Sure sports-corps is corrupt, but that's hardly surprising (giving MLB's steroid problem). Anyway it doesn't matter. Sure Susan's dad-dying-arc is over, but so?

Watch your back.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

^JMS?

"TKO" and "Knives" were episodes written by Larry DeTillo. I agree the latter was certainly better than the former, but not by much.

 

[Reverend]

I have noticed a tendency for some fans to credit JMS with just about every aspect of the show. I swear some even think he hand stitched all the costumes and painted all the sets too.
For those I recommend having a look at the interviews on the 'B5Scrolls' website. It may only cover the ship designs, but it gives an interesting insight into the goings on behind the scenes.

 

[OmahaStar]

For those I recommend having a look at the interviews on the 'B5Scrolls' website. It may only cover the ship designs, but it gives an interesting insight into the goings on behind the scenes.

B5Scrolls isn't a very good website, really. And JMS has never taken all the credit. He's the first to point out others' contributions.

 

[Jan]

I have noticed a tendency for some fans to credit JMS with just about every aspect of the show. I swear some even think he hand stitched all the costumes and painted all the sets too.
For those I recommend having a look at the interviews on the 'B5Scrolls' website. It may only cover the ship designs, but it gives an interesting insight into the goings on behind the scenes.

B5Scrolls isn't a very good website, really. And JMS has never taken all the credit. He's the first to point out others' contributions.

Thing is, when it comes to naming the writer, if you say JMS, odds are you'd be right. But yes, JMS has always done his best to give credit to all of the creaive folks in all of the departments that made B5 what it was.

I've had my issues with the webmaster at B5scrolls; I often don't care for his phrasing. But he's made a site that spotlights the B5 creative people when there simply wasn't much left online at this late date. To a new fan coming along long after the series aired (as he did), it would be easy to think that fans think JMS did it all. While he, John Copeland and Doug Netter approved it all (and everybody was trying to achieve JMS's vision), no way it was that much of a one-man show.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

Oh I didn't say JMS claims all the credit, just that some fans, or that is to say some people that I have run across on the net - be they webmasters or forum posters - have the odd perception that he was behind everything that appeared on screen. It's not an uncommon phenomenon when a producer, writer or show-runner has a good open communication with the fans and I've seen similar misconceptions surrounding the likes of Ron Moore, Bruce Timm and Joss Whedon.

Of course the attitudes of a sometimes vocal minority on the internet probably isn't representative of all B5 fans, but I think it should be corrected when encountered.

As for B5Scrolls, while it certainly has a very narrow focus it's been invaluable for the wika and helped keep the RPG crowd somewhat under control where the ship articles were concerned. I can't say much about the guy himself, having only had a brief exchange a few weeks back but I think he's presented the info on his site in what I'd call an appropriate context. His tone may be somewhat sardonic at times but I don't sense an agenda behind it, so I'm happy to just take it as it comes.

As you say, there's not allot out there on the net besides JMS's archives and it's good to get an alternate perspective from someone else who worked on the show in a creative capacity...mostly anyway. I got quite a harsh telling off from one of the prop builders I managed to piss off!

 

[Jan]

I got quite a harsh telling off from one of the prop builders I managed to piss off!

C'mon, now...you can't just leave us hanging like that?! What upset him/her/it?

Jan

 

[Reverend]

Oh nothing dramatic, she just filled up her own article on the wiki with about half a novel's worth of poorly written self promotion that mainly consisted of a barely punctuated list of just about every prop she ever made.
Typically, when you get a load of text like that from an unregistered IP it's never worth asking them to clean it up to bring it up to standard as they almost never stick around and since I didn't fancy the job nor could it be left as it was I hit undo. I mean we already had a link to her site so I didn't feel it added anything significant. Hell, even Joe's article doesn't have that much detail!
Next thing I know there's this vitriolic rant about how I must be some former co-worker on the show trying to do her out of her due credit. Yikes!

 

[Tulin]

TKO

All in all, TKO is one of the few truly mediocre outings in the series. Probably because not much of it has any larger consequence.​

​

It's so bad it's the only episode of the ENTIRE series I did not show my partner when we watched it recently.

 

[Mal]

I have noticed a tendency for some fans to credit JMS with just about every aspect of the show. I swear some even think he hand stitched all the costumes and painted all the sets too.
For those I recommend having a look at the interviews on the 'B5Scrolls' website. It may only cover the ship designs, but it gives an interesting insight into the goings on behind the scenes.

That was kind of sloppy of me: while JMS has said that he takes full responsibility for everything in Babylon 5 (I think it was with relation to the blooper green-screen in the garden with Londo, but I could be wrong), nevertheless, TKO was written by Larry DiTillio, at least according to The Lurker's Guide, which is my only source for all things B5!

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

I have noticed a tendency for some fans to credit JMS with just about every aspect of the show. I swear some even think he hand stitched all the costumes and painted all the sets too.
For those I recommend having a look at the interviews on the 'B5Scrolls' website. It may only cover the ship designs, but it gives an interesting insight into the goings on behind the scenes.

nice tip. I googled that website, it's very cool, a lot of interesting interviews I'd never read before. Mainly because everything I looked up and read tended to be JMS-centric as well.

In particular I recommend the John Copeland (producer on B5) interview, it's very long and has lots of fascinating info

http://themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen1_04_1

The concept drawings are also pretty cool. Particularly the hand-drawn "encounter suit" from Deconstruction, and my personal favorite.... drawings of a hybrid "Shadow Tech" Starfury that was going to be used in Crusade episodes!

 

[Mal]

Grail

Fools to the left of me, Feeders to the right; I need to find a real job.
​

I can see why Babylon 5 was initially such a turn-off for Star Trek fans. I admit, I didn't watch a single episode until after the whole series was long over. And 1x15 Grail is an example of why. "JMS" really laid the whole religion angle down pretty hard in Season 1. There was the overt stuff like Susan's Rabbi; we have Sinclair introducing members from a hundred different Earth religions; we have G'kar's paganism; the Minbari religious caste; the over-the-top Believers; Centauri Seers; and now The Holy Grail!

Grail first aired in 1994, and by this time, TNG was essentially communist - no money; no countries; no god. I can only imagine what scifi fans must have thought when they flipped over to B5...

Speaking of 1994, one big problem with B5 was the lack of lawyers (how is that a problem, you ask?!?). Although Law & Order had started a few years earlier, 1994 was well before the era of the Legal Show - Alley McBeal; Boston Legal; JAG etc. As a result, there was a serious lack on B5 of the legal side of life.

The Next Generation's Enterprise also lacked lawyers, but they got around that by allowing Officers to serve as lawyers, and in the Big Legal Shows (Measure of a Man - Data's big legal drama; and Drumhead), they brought in JAG officers for the episode. But when Sheridan gets in legal trouble in There All The Honor Lies, Earthforce has to send out a lawyer to the station to represent him! Are you telling me on a station of 250,000 people there are no lawyers? WTF?

Anyway, all this a long way of saying that the scenes with the Ombudsman are pretty lame (although the joke of suing for abduction is kinda funny). Bottom line: this is one side of the show that was seriously underdeveloped.

Couple of other things that emerge from this episode: The Babylon Station (at first they weren't numbered) was sabotaged; as was Babylon 2 & 3; Babylon 4 of course we know was sent back to fight with Valen during the last Shadow war; and Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. There would never be another.

Na'ka'leen seems to be an early introduction of entities from the "wrong" side of the last Shadow war, like the later Zarg from Gray 17 is Missing. Anyway, the only good Na'ka'leen is a dead Na'ka'leen

Final Question: If Aldus had had the chance to ask Kosh if the Vorlons possessed the Holy Grail, what do you think ambassador Kosh would have said?

No Boom today. Boom tomorrow. There is always a boom tomorrow...

 

[Reverend]

I think I should point out (before Jan beats me to it) that this episode suffered from what was essentially a complete absence of a director. If reports from the set are accurate, the guy was there but he was more interested in fuming over being just handed his pink slip than bothering to give anyone any direction. If I remember it right the DoP (who just happened to have a cameo as the guy suing the Vree) pretty much had to take up as much of the slack as he could, but the actors were effectivly on their own.

Of course David Warner is an old pro so you'd hardly know it from his performance, but just about everyone else is all over the place.

As for the Zarg and the Na'ka'leen, to my knowledge there's no connection between either of them and the Shadows. They're both just predatory aliens that get smuggled on the station. Not evil, just dangerous.