It was the Dawn of the Third Age of Mankind

[Mal]

It can occasionally backfire of course; it's no secret that Jeri Ryan was cast for nothing else than her ability to look good in a catsuit, but she went ahead and turned in a remarkable performance regardless.

Oddly enough, though I hated Enterprise, I feel the same way about Jolene. Over the course of the show she really impressed me with her acting abilities.

As for B5's extras - wow, they hired a few stinkers, didn't they? How about the mother of that family touring Downbelow? The one where the daughter's ball rolled over to Doc Frankiln when he was on walkabout? She outstank Brown section!

Agree on T'pol. Actually (and I may be alone on this), I thought Trip wasn't too shabby either.

But B5 had two AMAZING actors playing londo and g'kar. TNG had Sir Patrick and every now and then Whoopi freaking Goldberg. DS9's odo, kira and bashir actors all went on to have incredible careers thanks to their fantastic talents.

ENT had... no one.

 

[Reverend]

^ You're not alone, Trip was easily the best character of the whole bunch.

As for B5, I don't see how anyone could have a problem with Londo and G'Kar. For that matter I honestly don't get why I so often hear people label B5 as "the cheesy show with all the bad acting and rubbish dialogue" or words to that effect. Don't get me wrong, they had some really bad guest characters - especially early on - and some rather clunky episodes - again, especially early on - but so do most shows and very few managed to continually top themselves for five (arguably four) years running, which is exactly what B5 did.

 

[Mal]

^I think it's safe to say that both John Sheridan and Bruce Boxleitner would take issue with that opinion.

Agreed, but he may not have seen her in that blue jumpsuit on TNG!

i had no idea

you learn something new every day

 

[Mal]

Geometry of Shadows

Green must fight Purple; Purple must fight Green; is no other way.
​

There are four plots running through 2x03 Geometry of Shadows: (1) Garibaldi must decide whether or not to go back on duty; (2) Lord Refa makes his inaugural appearance and begins plotting with Londo; (3) Ivanova is promoted and must negotiate a Drazi green/purple cease-fire (Commander? It's good to see things are working out for someone around here.); and (4) the Technomages are on the station.

The Technomages
I have read the Technomage Trilogy twice now, and it is seriously a fantastic piece of science fiction! Most of the time these TV-show spin-off novels are written by flunkie English majors who can't get a real job but are not quite willing to write porn. But not the Technomage Trilogy - it's well written, intricately plotted, and full of compelling ideas. Sadly those traits are hidden so far below the subtext of Geometry of Shadows so as to be almost invisible. At best this episode serves as a teaser to entice you to take the plunge into those three novels. And I highly recommend that you do!

Here's something interesting: Elric was wrong! He says Londo is touched by darkness - I could warn you but you would not listen. Um, no. Lwuxana Troi shaves her head and warns Londo, and in the end (the very, very end), he does face his greatest fear (death at the hands of G'kar), and thus saves Sheridan, and also Centauri Prime.

Of course this is tied together with Lord Refa, who is just such a fantastic villain! After his death in the Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place, IMHO, Cartagia became half as satisfying a replacement. Maybe I just love the way Refa talks (Ink on a page)!

Officer Lou Welch has a nice little scene with Garibaldi (we bought you a cake). These two have a warm chemistry (in Revelations I particularity liked Lou's suggestion to Sherida: He's all yours, Captain, unless you'd like to take a walk around the block a couple times). I'm not saying I don't like Zach Allen, it's just that Lou has a very special charm. Almost O'Brien-esque.

The less said about green versus purple, the better. Orange juice makes an appearance. With the pulp Orange blossoms magically appear.

I see a great hand, reaching out of the stars...

 

[Mal]

^I think it's safe to say that both John Sheridan and Bruce Boxleitner would take issue with that opinion.

Agreed, but he may not have seen her in that blue jumpsuit on TNG!

I just went back to watch TNG's 4x06 Legacy, and what I had forgotten about the scene with the blue jumpsuit, is Data's beautiful description of friendship:

As I experience certain sensory input patterns, my mental pathways become accustomed to them. The input is eventually anticipated and even missed when absent.
​

And yes, Beth Toussaint is a far better actress than Melissa Gilbert.

 

[Reverend]

Here's something interesting: Elric was wrong! He says Londo is touched by darkness - I could warn you but you would not listen. Um, no. Lwuxana Troi shaves her head and warns Londo, and in the end (the very, very end), he does face his greatest fear (death at the hands of G'kar), and thus saves Sheridan, and also Centauri Prime.

I think the key point here is that Londo wouldn't listen to Elric and he didn't.

^I think it's safe to say that both John Sheridan and Bruce Boxleitner would take issue with that opinion.

Agreed, but he may not have seen her in that blue jumpsuit on TNG!

I just went back to watch TNG's 4x06 Legacy, and what I had forgotten about the scene with the blue jumpsuit, is Data's beautiful description of friendship:

As I experience certain sensory input patterns, my mental pathways become accustomed to them. The input is eventually anticipated and even missed when absent.
​

And yes, Beth Toussaint is a far better actress than Melissa Gilbert.

I want to argue with that, but in all honesty I've only seen each actress in a single role (not counting Toussaint's message as Anna) so I can hardly construct an informed opinion. But from what I saw, I didn't notice anything specifically wrong with Gilbert's acting.

 

[David cgc]

In my opinion, the Technomage trilogy got brought down a lot by what it tried to squeeze into the existing episodes. They retconned in ridiculous amounts of stuff in "Geometry" (oh, yeah, the Mages' transport exploded off-screen as soon as the shot cut away), made late Season 3 Londo a nakedly-evil caricature when he only phoned up Morden to help knock over Refa to avenge Adira (actually, come to think of it, we never found out what exactly Morden did to help. Probably just greased the wheels so G'Kar could get off and on the station, and have all those Narns freed. Though one wonders why Londo wouldn't be rich or influential enough to do it by himself...), and, the most irritating one, had Sheridan and Galen run into each other in the hall on Z'ha'dum. Everything else was one thing, but, really? Come on. It wasn't necessary, and it blows the moment of the scene. At least the other stuff was important to the plot, and wasn't just gratuitous literary Forest-Gumping.

 

[JoeD80]

phoned up Morden to help knock over Refa to avenge Adira (actually, come to think of it, we never found out what exactly Morden did to help. Probably just greased the wheels so G'Kar could get off and on the station, and have all those Narns freed. Though one wonders why Londo wouldn't be rich or influential enough to do it by himself...)

I think you have some episodes confused. Londo enlisted G'Kar's help to kill Refa and then used Vir to send Refa into his trap. Morden wasn't involved in any way.

 

[David cgc]

Exactly! But Morden framed Refa for killed Adira so Londo would start working with Morden again. Which he did at the end of the episode. But we never heard anything about their relationship after that, or how Morden helped Londo get his revenge. And the third Technomage book had Londo and Morden hanging out like buddies, as if it were early season 2 or something.

 

[JoeD80]

But we never heard anything about their relationship after that, or how Morden helped Londo get his revenge.

I think I'm going in circles here, but Morden didn't help Londo get his revenge, so that's why you don't hear about it.

 

[David cgc]

Then what did Morden gain from framing Refa for killing Adira? What exactly did Londo ask Morden to do for him at the end of "Interludes and Examinations"?

 

[Forbin]

^I think it's safe to say that both John Sheridan and Bruce Boxleitner would take issue with that opinion.

Agreed, but he may not have seen her in that blue jumpsuit on TNG!

i had no idea

you learn something new every day

I wonder how many young Trekkies hit puberty that night.

 

[Forbin]

Here's something interesting: Elric was wrong! He says Londo is touched by darkness - I could warn you but you would not listen. Um, no. Lwuxana Troi shaves her head and warns Londo, and in the end (the very, very end), he does face his greatest fear (death at the hands of G'kar), and thus saves Sheridan, and also Centauri Prime.

I think the key point here is that Londo wouldn't listen to Elric and he didn't.

Agreed, but he may not have seen her in that blue jumpsuit on TNG!

I just went back to watch TNG's 4x06 Legacy, and what I had forgotten about the scene with the blue jumpsuit, is Data's beautiful description of friendship:

As I experience certain sensory input patterns, my mental pathways become accustomed to them. The input is eventually anticipated and even missed when absent.
​

And yes, Beth Toussaint is a far better actress than Melissa Gilbert.

I want to argue with that, but in all honesty I've only seen each actress in a single role (not counting Toussaint's message as Anna) so I can hardly construct an informed opinion. But from what I saw, I didn't notice anything specifically wrong with Gilbert's acting.

Agreed, they're both perfectly competent actresses, and both perfectly attractive ladies in their own ways. Though Toussaint's way makes my higher brain functions shut down and blood rush to my nether regions.

 

[Reverend]

Then what did Morden gain from framing Refa for killing Adira? What exactly did Londo ask Morden to do for him at the end of "Interludes and Examinations"?

If you recall at that point Londo had managed to leverage Refa into essentially locking Morden out of the Royal Court. By framing Refa, Morden drove Londo to seek his help. It's never really spelled out what Morden's ultimate contribution was, but I imagine he helped set it up. Probably by getting the House Mollari guards assigned to Refa and obtaining all of the incriminating evidence on him.

What Morden got out of it was access to the royal court and with Refa and presumably his allies gone, he got more direct access to the Emperor.

 

[Mal]

A Distant Star

I will tell you a great secret, Captain. Perhaps the greatest of all time. The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station, and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star stuff, we are the universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out. As we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective.
​

It seems that this is actually what JMS believes. He uses variations on this star-stuff theme too many times in the course of the show for it to be a coincidence. I get the feeling that Gray 17 is Missing exists almost solely for Jeremiah to espouse a very similar theory.

Thoughts? Do you buy Delenn/S5-G'kar's view of the universe?

As far as the main plot, boooring - although that may be the point, cause John seems to find his new desk job kinda boring too. I remember watching the series the first time through and finding all this teasing information about the Shadows quite titillating. But now, eh.

This episode sees B5's first - but not last - West Side Story alumn. Not a fan of his acting here. Personally I liked him better as God.

Everyone is on a diet. Delenn's people aren't sure of who she is, and neither, I think, is she.

One wonderful note does come at the end between Michael and Steven:

It's for my birthday... My father always made Banya Cowda for me on my birthday. Pop was a great cook and Banya was his specialty. And when he used to cook it, I mean, the smell - oh man, the smell used to fill the whole place. It's funny, you know, when I watched him cook, I knew he was doing because he loved . He just could never say it, so he did that instead. He's been gone a long time, so now I make it myself, once a year, honoring him, you know? It's... it's the only part of him I got left.​

 

[OmahaStar]

This episode sees B5's first - but not last - West Side Story alumn.

Ok, now I'm curious. Who else was in both?

 

[Jan]

It seems that this is actually what JMS believes. He uses variations on this star-stuff theme too many times in the course of the show for it to be a coincidence. I get the feeling that Gray 17 is Missing exists almost solely for Jeremiah to espouse a very similar theory.

I wouldn't count on it. Just because he writes as if something is real to his characters doesn't mean he believe it himself. After all, he writes as if Narns and Minbari are real but he doesn't actually believe in them. 'Bout the only thing he cops to believing is in synchronicity.

Thoughts? Do you buy Delenn/S5-G'kar's view of the universe?

Not really. I'm willing to concede that there are possibly energies in the universe that we haven't learned to tap into but as far as any sentience or universe-broken-into-pieces-figuring-itself-out, no.

Jan

 

[Mal]

It seems that this is actually what JMS believes. He uses variations on this star-stuff theme too many times in the course of the show for it to be a coincidence. I get the feeling that Gray 17 is Missing exists almost solely for Jeremiah to espouse a very similar theory.

I wouldn't count on it. Just because he writes as if something is real to his characters doesn't mean he believe it himself. After all, he writes as if Narns and Minbari are real but he doesn't actually believe in them. 'Bout the only thing he cops to believing is in synchronicity.

Thoughts? Do you buy Delenn/S5-G'kar's view of the universe?

Not really. I'm willing to concede that there are possibly energies in the universe that we haven't learned to tap into but as far as any sentience or universe-broken-into-pieces-figuring-itself-out, no.

Jan

Well, on a strictly factual level, we are star-stuff. Pretty much all the elements are created inside stars by way of nuclear fusion, and then they are spread throughout the universe by in an explosion of a super nova.

So yeah, the molecules that make up your body are the same molecules that make up your house, the clouds, the sun and the moon. That's just physics.

 

[Reverend]

It seems that this is actually what JMS believes. He uses variations on this star-stuff theme too many times in the course of the show for it to be a coincidence. I get the feeling that Gray 17 is Missing exists almost solely for Jeremiah to espouse a very similar theory.

I wouldn't count on it. Just because he writes as if something is real to his characters doesn't mean he believe it himself. After all, he writes as if Narns and Minbari are real but he doesn't actually believe in them. 'Bout the only thing he cops to believing is in synchronicity.

Thoughts? Do you buy Delenn/S5-G'kar's view of the universe?

Not really. I'm willing to concede that there are possibly energies in the universe that we haven't learned to tap into but as far as any sentience or universe-broken-into-pieces-figuring-itself-out, no.

Jan

Not to get too deeply into a philosophical discussion, but I think there is a line of thinking (probably chaos theory) that goes somewhere along the lines that a thinking consciousness is just a network of connections that has reached a kind of critical mass of complexity and interconnectivity; like neurons in the brain. Assuming there is something connecting everything to everything else then it might be possible. Of course for such a consciousness to even be are of us is considerably less likely as one of us being aware of an individual protein molecule in the brain and visa versa. Plus it'd have to operate on a set of dimensions that'd turn our space-time continuum look...umm...well....not very big or complicated I suppose?

The ant on the glove analogy wouldn't even approach it.

Not that I agree or disagree mind you, but it's about as bonkers as anything the so called sensible religions have come up with.

So yeah, the molecules that make up your body are the same molecules that make up your house, the clouds, the sun and the moon. That's just physics.

Correct: it's not just a pretty notion, it's the law!

 

[Forbin]

Carl Sagan said "Starstuff" first way back on Cosmos. Everybody else is just homaging him when they say it.