"It is time for the Jedi ... to end" Poll/Discussion Thread

[DigificWriter]

@Reverend I agree with pretty much everything you said, although we do have two Canonical instances of a Jedi using the Dark Side and remaining 'pure' (both coming from Return of the Jedi) that contradict your assertion that a Jedi can't tap into that power without forfeiting their status as such.

The first of these two instances comes at the start of RotJ when Luke force's his way into an audience with Jabba. The Gamoreans who are guarding the throne room try to impede him, and he Force-chokes them in response.

The second instance of course comes at the end of the film when Vader's words about Leia cause Luke to snap and he flies into a rage, only to mentally pull himself back from the edge and declare himself to be a Jedi.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I won't mince words about the next bit since the trailer seems to have been giving people some ill informed ideas: "Grey Jedi" aren't a thing. It was something that was kicked around in the EU, mostly in the DH comics and a little in KotOR. The concept has no basis in anything GL has ever said or depicted and by all accounts, the current thinking at LF is that there ain't no such thing and there never was.

Canon is mutable, so the next movie could change everything.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ And the world "could" end tomorrow; that doesn't mean it's going to.

The term "grey Jedi" just does not exist in Star Wars Canon as of this moment, and the chance of it existing in the Canon at some point in the future is practically non-existent.

 

[Jedi_Master]

^ And the world "could" end tomorrow; that doesn't mean it's going to.

The term "grey Jedi" just does not exist in Star Wars Canon as of this moment, and the chance of it existing in the Canon at some point in the future is practically non-existent.

The concept, however, of a balanced force user that embraces all elements of the "light" and the "dark" side is something I fully expect to be explored in the next film, and in subsequent films.

 

[DigificWriter]

The concept, however, of a balanced force user that embraces all elements of the "light" and the "dark" side is something I fully expect to be explored in the next film, and in subsequent films.

Given that they've already done this elsewhere, you may be right, but that means abandoning the tenets of the Jedi Order.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Given that they've already done this elsewhere, you may be right, but that means abandoning the tenets of the Jedi Order.

Which was created to service the story needs of the Prequel Trilogy, and included such whoppers as "no attachment."
It won't be missed.

 

[fireproof78]

I couldn't resist. I probably should have:

 

[Reverend]

@Reverend I agree with pretty much everything you said, although we do have two Canonical instances of a Jedi using the Dark Side and remaining 'pure' (both coming from Return of the Jedi) that contradict your assertion that a Jedi can't tap into that power without forfeiting their status as such.

The first of these two instances comes at the start of RotJ when Luke force's his way into an audience with Jabba. The Gamoreans who are guarding the throne room try to impede him, and he Force-chokes them in response.

The second instance of course comes at the end of the film when Vader's words about Leia cause Luke to snap and he flies into a rage, only to mentally pull himself back from the edge and declare himself to be a Jedi.

Neither of those instances are really pertinent. For the first one: it's not a video game. Light side and dark side don't come with distinct powers and abilities. Anything a Jedi can do, so can a Sith and visa-versa. It's just a question of how they're willing to use the force and why. In this instance, Luke didn't kill those guards, he rendered them unconscious. There was no hate, anger of malice in the act.

As for the second one: again, you're oversimplifying it. Luke momentarily flying into a rage doesn't mean he fell to the dark side or ceased being a Jedi. When he saw what he was able to do with that power and what it costs he instantly rejected it. It's really a temptation scene and the moment when he cast aside his saber and refused to fight is the moment he truly became a Jedi.

Also keep in mind it's not necessarily about what an individual chooses to do in the moment. Anakin certainly didn't technically cease to be a Jedi when he slaughtered those Tuskens or took a wife (though if the council ever found out about either of those things he probably would have.
The Jedi Order is (was?) an organisation with a hierarchy, a set of rules and leadership. Being a Jedi is a subjective thing. You don't get to be a one unless the council says you are and you only cease to be one if they expel you or you choose to leave of your own accord. Luke was a Jedi because Yoda said so. He even predicted the circumstances.

To take a converse example: let's say for the sake of argument that Ky Narec was never killed and he completed Asajj's training as his chosen apprentice and yet he never reconnected with the council. Would she still be a Jedi in these circumstances? No, she would not.
In all but name, certainly, but the name is the critical thing here as we're discussing a name for a thing that cannot exist. A Jedi is a Jedi and not a Jedi is not a Jedi. That's the beginning middle and end of it.

Canon is mutable, so the next movie could change everything.

That's about as much as a non-argument as one can get and as such, utterly irrelevant.

I couldn't resist. I probably should have:

^That actually sums it up pretty well. A "Grey Jedi" is the result of the fans and certain story tellers attempting to have their cake and eat it too. Basically trying to make a Jedi anti-hero. And don't get me started on the concept of "Dark Jedi"! Now that really is an oxymoron.

 

[JD]

So you're not saying their aren't people who use both sides of the Force, you're just saying the people who do aren't Jedi?

 

[LJones41]

I don't believe there are any "sides" to the Force. There is just the Force. Why compartmentalize something as ambiguous as the Force?

The second instance of course comes at the end of the film when Vader's words about Leia cause Luke to snap and he flies into a rage, only to mentally pull himself back from the edge and declare himself to be a Jedi.

I believe Luke had a great deal of help from Palpatine. In fact, I have often found myself wondering what would have happened if the Emperor had not openly gloated over Luke's display of rage before the latter could kill Anakin.

 

[publiusr]

According to Wookieepedia, the species of the Mortis family of Force-wielders is known as the Ones, citing the reference book Ultimate Star Wars.

I think they were also called Anchorites...

 

[Nightowl1701]

I believe Luke had a great deal of help from Palpatine. In fact, I have often found myself wondering what would have happened if the Emperor had not openly gloated over Luke's display of rage before the latter could kill Anakin.

His overconfidence was his weakness, and proved his undoing. Had he just shut up at that moment, or been just a little smarter in adding that one last bit of fuel to the fire ("You know, he killed your mother too..."), that would have been it for Vader, and for Luke as well. It was that close.

 

[Tuskin38]

So you're not saying their aren't people who use both sides of the Force, you're just saying the people who do aren't Jedi?

I think that is what Pablo Hidalgo said on Twitter. "You're either a Jedi or you're not".

Since the Jedi code was all about the light, I can imagine they'd wouldn't support Grey force users.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

@Reverend I agree with pretty much everything you said, although we do have two Canonical instances of a Jedi using the Dark Side and remaining 'pure' (both coming from Return of the Jedi) that contradict your assertion that a Jedi can't tap into that power without forfeiting their status as such.

The first of these two instances comes at the start of RotJ when Luke force's his way into an audience with Jabba. The Gamoreans who are guarding the throne room try to impede him, and he Force-chokes them in response.

The second instance of course comes at the end of the film when Vader's words about Leia cause Luke to snap and he flies into a rage, only to mentally pull himself back from the edge and declare himself to be a Jedi.

While not EXACTLY Canon, many sources say this is also true of Mace Windu, who carefully studied both the light saber techniques and force practices of the Sith in order to produce a more effective fighting style for himself. It was, apparently, one of the things that made Mace Windu such an accomplished Jedi (second only to Yoda in skill and seniority) and why he, ahead of anyone else, lead the arrest team that went after Palpatine.

I don't believe there are any "sides" to the Force. There is just the Force. Why compartmentalize something as ambiguous as the Force?

Mother Talzin said the same thing both in and out of canon, and I believe the Bendu said something along those lines too. From a philosophical standpoint, there are those who maintain that anything that shines a light will also cast a shadow, and some would also go farther to say that light cannot exist -- or at least, cannot have any meaning -- without a contrasting darkness.

I kind of think that the Jedi ideal IS to strike exactly that sort of balance, and my own headcanon is that their fanatical and knee-jerk reaction to the Sith and everything they represented is not only the main thing that "diminished" their ability to use the force, it's ultimately what transformed the Jedi Order into a dogmatic force of oppression in the years leading up to the Clone Wars. They spent so much time trying to impose ideological purity among their own members and in the galaxy at large that they lost sight of the true nature of the force and, as such, were blinded to its true potential.

So I think Luke finally saw past that fallacy and realized that the dark side and the light side are both two aspects of the same thing, and that only unifying the two of them in harmony can bring out the full power of the Force. Doing that requires a certain amount of detachment and clarity, though (the Jedi were right about that much), to avoid both the seductive temptations of the dark side and the self-gratifying delusions of the light. You must let go of personal attachments and desires, but you ALSO must let go of morality and the drive of self-sacrifice.

It is only when you submit to the will of the Force that Force truly submits to you. Then you're one with the force.
That's prolly how Obi-Won did it.

The Jedi and the Sith both USE the force, but they are not its masters. They both pursue their own desires based on their unique point of view. But the Force has its OWN will about where the universe should be moving, and maybe it's time somebody started listening?

[/rant]

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I've explained this once recently already this week, but I'll do so again: the dark side is not just another way to use the force, it's an aberrant perversion of the natural order. It's what happens when your take the natural give-and-take cycle of the Living Force & the Cosmic Force and bend it to your will, *causing* an imbalance. It's cancerous and insidious and toxic. There's no middle ground a Jedi can walk and still call themselves a Jedi.

Or so the Jedi would have you believe!

The "imbalance" you're referring to is a consequence of the doctrines of the sith and is, from what I can tell, the natural consequence of EXCLUSIVELY using what the Jedi and the Sith call "the dark side." It causes that imbalance BECAUSE you only use that aspect of it.

And there's at least one canon example to back this up: In "Rogue One" we have this very interesting line

"The Force moves darkly near a creature that is about to kill."

Operative phrase: "Moves darkly." To kill, therefore, is an aspect of the Dark Side -- we kind of knew this already, because the Jedi believe that life is sacred and to preserve it is a call of the light side -- and yet even the Jedi have been known to kill people from time to time, when they needed to or in self defense. The rebels kill imperial soldiers by the thousands, and imperials kill rebels on sight. Mace Windu tried to kill Palpatine to eliminate the Sith, and even Yoda -- FUCKING YODA!! -- tried to assassinate him.

And yet, the deliberately destruction of life is a move made in darkness. So how can a Jedi take life and still be on the side of light?

But that's the wrong question. The question is: how can carnivores exist if "darkness" in the force is a perversion of the natural order?

As mentioned earlier: it's because light and shadow are two sides of the same overall reality. Chirrut "sees" the shadow Cassian is casting when he goes on his deadly errand, not because Cassian is turning towards the dark side, but because death and destruction are the shadows cast by life and creation.

Put simply: a Jedi that rejects the teachings of the Jedi is no longer a Jedi.

This is true. Just not for the reasons you're thinking.

Basically, a Jedi who believes that in the totality of the force -- including the value of darkness mingling with the light -- would be expelled from the order for heresy, or worse.