No argue here, I'd add that the creative teams were equally at fault
Issues with Voyager
- Thread starter jimbtnp2
- Start date
No argue here, I'd add that the creative teams were equally at fault
Tuvok and Neelix died in a transporter accident, a new lifeform was born, and Janeway murdered it. The utter ridiculousness of the Doc's procedure--presto, they appear in uniforms again--just underlines how utterly silly and devoid of morality that episode was. I prefer to ignore the episode and pretend it never happened. That's easy since the end came so quickly and Tuvok and Neelix never reacted to what happened and no one really gave Janeway a hard time about it.
If I had been on that crew, I'd have tried to hide the guy and start a mutiny and wound up in the brig for the rest of the journey. No one stepped forward, I couldn't believe it--what the Doc did was pretty lame, but hey he's a hologram. For no one to step forward, for there to be no real debate and no consequences? That just screams--"oooo, cool, let's meld two characters and have some fun." There was no moral justification or entertainment value in that script from my point of view. And I'm a huge Janeway fan! I hate how she's written in Tuvix, though.
If I had been on that crew, I'd have tried to hide the guy and start a mutiny and wound up in the brig for the rest of the journey. No one stepped forward, I couldn't believe it--what the Doc did was pretty lame, but hey he's a hologram. For no one to step forward, for there to be no real debate and no consequences? That just screams--"oooo, cool, let's meld two characters and have some fun." There was no moral justification or entertainment value in that script from my point of view. And I'm a huge Janeway fan! I hate how she's written in Tuvix, though.
How about when the Doctor ALMOST asked if One wouldn't mind an ice cream scoop being used to retrieve his mobile emitter lodged in his brain?
Agreed. VOY had huge potential creatively, but they botched it pretty much from the start by having the Maquis accept Starfleet rules so quickly when they may not have been in their best interests, and also the decision to keep the ship pristine and comfortable severely harmed the credibility of the "alone in the DQ" concept
Not sure what you mean here. VOY did indeed have some crappy holodeck episodes and overall I think the holodeck concept has been done to death now in Trek.
The cast was OK, but the characters were weak. Aside from Tom Paris and the EMH, I thought the characters were bland and dull (or pointless in the case of Neelix, Kes and Harry Kim).
Agreed. VOY took technobabble to absurd levels.
That's a bit vague. She wasn't a good character. It's hard to believe the crew didn't mutiny against her for her initial bizarre decision to destroy the Caretaker's Array simply to protect the Ocampa who she had taken a personal liking to, thus violating the Prime Directive and making a needless enemy of the Kazon, who had shown no aggression towards VOY's crew until Neelix the prick took a phaser to Jabin's throat.
Agreed.
Agreed. The rot actually started on TNG when they introduced "Hugh". On VOY, it got worse with the Borg Babe, then the Borg Kids.
The show sucked, but who cares what Roddenberry wanted?
He introduced Wesley Crusher and also came up with dumb ideas like the "no conflict among Starfleet characters" and the "kids on board the ship" concepts.
To your first statement, I happen to be one of the few people here who thinks the casting of Voyager was good. I happen to like the whole cast and even though they were written weak at times, there was nothing I could do about it. So why cry over spilled milk now?
I disagree about Beltran. I think he's a great actor..his character at times was weak, but all in all he did a great job and I loved his character!
I do agree with you to some extent about Wang. He was the weakest out of the whole cast, but he did interest me at times on the show.
You know what, I happen to like Janeway. In the beginning, when she was first on the show, I read in one of the books about Voyager that when Mulgrew was in character and she yelled out "report!", the whole production team's mouths dropped and so did the Voyager cast at her voice. She was very powerful in the beginning and still was until Voyager ended. And I don't like comparing her to the other Captains at all. I really enjoyed her character and thought it was awesome that they were putting a female in the captain's seat.
Shatner, IMHO, overacted. Picard was always adjusting his uniform, and Sisko was kinda bland at some times(even though I love Avery Brooks). But Janeway, she could light up a room sometimes! 
This means she either did nothing at all... or she did nothing wrong from the crews point of view, and nothing right from my point of view!
After reading all these posts about how Janeway never gets anything right it's a bit refreshing to find out she could do no wrong.
The responsibility is in the hands of the patient. In both these episodes Janeway violates the patient's right to choose.
It's plain and simple.
Medical ethics forbids forcing a patient to undergo a procedure against his or her will.
Tuvix was a sentient being created in an accident.
At the point Tuvok and Neelix became Tuvix, Tuvok and Neelix as individuals ceased to exist.
Tuvix--the being who could choose to live or die--was the patient. He should have had the final say.
It's different. They were already dead to all intents and purposes. It was accident, but it was wrong to kill the resulting person in order to play God and bring them back.
I completely agree with KayArr and teya.
Actually it's not so simple. As a starship captain Janeway is responsible for the lives of her crew. They're far from home and they need their Chief Engineer. This is not a black and white issue.
Yes, every crewmember who has been tortured by the Cardassians (and according to Janeway's backstory she is one of them) has every reason to be angry. However, while B'Elanna's willingness to die on principle may well be a noble act in the end it's also a selfish one since it may condemn the remainder of the crew to death somewhere down the line.
One of the great things about Janeway imo is that she's never afraid to make the tough calls. She's willing to take the blame for what will in the end serve a larger purpose just like Sisko was willing to do in "In the Pale Moonlight".
Was it the right call? To quote B'Elanna in "The Cloud": "If you're wrong, we're going to have a lot of time to debate it."
Well I guess we're all going to have to agree to disagree then because I don't see Tuvok and Neelix as dead.
Maybe so, but Torres has the right to refuse medical treatment, and not even the CO can order the CMO to proceed
A regular CMO, maybe. This one, if he displease them, they just rewrite his memories after compelling him to mindlessly obey. It's a good system.
She threatened to do it in year of hell, Ransom did do it, and they did it for his own good in After Image... And really, who actually believes that the last five minutes of Author Author really happened and it wasn't a false memory implanted to make sure the Doctor stayed on board Voyager?
Oh I agree with you.
But Janeway's madness is a little justified in this case. Most every episode she orders her friends and crew to possibly murder and maim people and no one thinks to question those orders... So what right does a jumped up little hologram or a terrorist who hasn't gone to jail to answer for her crimes as a Maquis as yet thinks she can escape Federation Justice by avoiding medical aid... Hells and that goes double for when the Doctor killed her a couple times so she can see her mommy on the barge of the dead.
But Janeway's madness is a little justified in this case. Most every episode she orders her friends and crew to possibly murder and maim people and no one thinks to question those orders... So what right does a jumped up little hologram or a terrorist who hasn't gone to jail to answer for her crimes as a Maquis as yet thinks she can escape Federation Justice by avoiding medical aid... Hells and that goes double for when the Doctor killed her a couple times so she can see her mommy on the barge of the dead.
Okay now you're just making stuff up...
