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Issues with Voyager

By the time VOY came out Trek wasn't a big public thing anymore. It really didn't do much damage to the franchise.

What damaged Trek was over-saturation and marginalization. Too many series (one right after the other), stretching the writing staff too thinly, keeping the same guys in charge when they clearly had burnt out, not hiring new blood.
 
By the time VOY came out Trek wasn't a big public thing anymore. It really didn't do much damage to the franchise.

What damaged Trek was over-saturation and marginalization. Too many series (one right after the other), stretching the writing staff too thinly, keeping the same guys in charge when they clearly had burnt out, not hiring new blood.

Bingo, Anwar, that's why I never made it past season 1 of DS9 or season 2 of Voyager (though I now love Voyager on dvd). The first season of Enterprise had me tremendously excited, though--great ship, uniforms, scripts, cast. Trek was exciting once more!
 
The worst cast ever assembled for a TV show

You lost any credibility with that statement because no matter what you think about the writing, you obviously are bias in your opinion to a degree where balance judgement has gone out of the window.
 
One of the issues I have with Voyager is the sometimes dubious morals, especially with regards to Janeway.

On TNG, Picard was the undisputed moral guardian, with those memorable speeches in episodes like The Measure of a Man, First Duty and The Drumhead. DS9 had Sisko and others doing bad things, but it was still fairly clear that they were bad, even if it could be argued the ends justified the means. There was always someone like Bashir to point out the ideals.

The trouble with Voyager is that Janeway does some reprehensible things, but the episodes are sometimes written to suggest she is right. Tuvix is the classic example, almost the anti-Measure for Man. We have the ultimate irony of the hologram that has more value of life and the individual's right to choose than the captain. The episode ends too abruptly for there to be any real exploration of whether Janeway regrets her actions, or the feelings of others. What did Tuvok and Neelix make of killing a person in order to bring them back? There is that truly harrowing scene on the bridge where Tuvix pleads for his life before an impassive crew. It's done, and implied that her decision is correct.

The other one I remember is Nothing Human. It's an interesting story, in which ultimately the Doctor accepts that to use knowledge gained through horrific experimentation is wrong. Once again it's Janeway who orders the Doc to operate on B'Elanna, despite her clear wishes. At the end, Janeway has the gall to order her to forget about it. Can a captain really order someone what to think and feel? Again, it's almost accepted that she's right, and of course there is no follow-up. Torres and Janeway's relationship seems unimpaired in subsequent episodes.

There are probably other episodes in which she's presented in a far better light, or when the episode accepts she's wrong. Latent Image and Equinox are probably two. Tuvix and Nothing Human are a pair of episodes that bother me, as they seem to go against the familiar Trekkian ideals.
 
By the time VOY came out Trek wasn't a big public thing anymore. It really didn't do much damage to the franchise.

What damaged Trek was over-saturation and marginalization. Too many series (one right after the other), stretching the writing staff too thinly, keeping the same guys in charge when they clearly had burnt out, not hiring new blood.

Too many series - did not hurt the show

too much bad ST did
 
The worst cast ever assembled for a TV show
You lost any credibility with that statement because no matter what you think about the writing, you obviously are bias in your opinion to a degree where balance judgement has gone out of the window.

I know of not one person who thinks the cast of voyager is good - compared to ST or all TV

Berltran is like the Kevin Costner of ST - bland as can be

Garret Wang is the poster child for bad trek acting

Compare Janeway's performance to Nimoy, Kelly, Shatner, Stewart, Spiner
Its no comparison
 
The trouble with Voyager is that Janeway does some reprehensible things, but the episodes are sometimes written to suggest she is right. Tuvix is the classic example, almost the anti-Measure for Man. We have the ultimate irony of the hologram that has more value of life and the individual's right to choose than the captain. The episode ends too abruptly for there to be any real exploration of whether Janeway regrets her actions, or the feelings of others. What did Tuvok and Neelix make of killing a person in order to bring them back? There is that truly harrowing scene on the bridge where Tuvix pleads for his life before an impassive crew. It's done, and implied that her decision is correct.

It might not have been intentional but you'll note in Riddles that it is Neelex who convinces an intellectually neutered Tuvok to have the Operation to recover his Vulcan reserve. If it was continuity, the writers might have assumed that they had to hide it.

I never saw Tuvok make another pudding for the rest of the series, how about you?
 
By the time VOY came out Trek wasn't a big public thing anymore. It really didn't do much damage to the franchise.

What damaged Trek was over-saturation and marginalization. Too many series (one right after the other), stretching the writing staff too thinly, keeping the same guys in charge when they clearly had burnt out, not hiring new blood.

Too many series - did not hurt the show

too much bad ST did

And the shows became bad due to over-saturation because they were rushed into production and the writers were too thinly stretched out.

Plus UPN's dictatorship didn't help matters.
 
I tend to think of Voyager as much like brown acid of Star Trek. It's not going to kill you, but it will give you a bad trip.

Riddles is not amazing, but Tim is given some latitude to work it. :)
 
can we create a time amchine and exercise this show from existence?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion which is why we've been giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you don't like Voyager and wish to discuss your reasoning then that's fine. Any more trolls like this one though and you'll get a warning.
 
The trouble with Voyager is that Janeway does some reprehensible things, but the episodes are sometimes written to suggest she is right.

The thing is a lot of viewers (myself included) believe she was right the instances you're referring to. Personally I believe that saving Tuvok and Neelix was the right thing to do - if you were in that situation wouldn't you want to know that your captain would do anything possible to get you back? I know I sure would!

The other one I remember is Nothing Human. It's an interesting story, in which ultimately the Doctor accepts that to use knowledge gained through horrific experimentation is wrong. Once again it's Janeway who orders the Doc to operate on B'Elanna, despite her clear wishes. At the end, Janeway has the gall to order her to forget about it. Can a captain really order someone what to think and feel? Again, it's almost accepted that she's right, and of course there is no follow-up. Torres and Janeway's relationship seems unimpaired in subsequent episodes.
Janeway didn't want B'Elanna to die - how awful of her! The show brings up a good moral issue particularly when you consider that many of the medical advances and advantages you and I enjoy today were made at the cost of other lives. What is our moral responsibility when accepting/denying treatment?
 
The thing about Janeway was that she was Jeri Taylor's Mary Sue: she could do no wrong or at least not suffer from her actions. Other writers may have wanted it to be more realistic but it wouldn't happen on Taylor's watch.
 
Quadruple that response for Christie Golden and Her endless supply of Voyager Novels.

Althoguh you could tell nothign was going to be sensible right from the beginning.

TORRES: What do you think you're doing? That array is the only way we have to get back home!
JANEWAY: I'm aware everyone has families and loved ones at homes they want to get back to. So do I. But I'm not willing to trade the lives of the Ocampa for our convenience. We'll have to find another way home.
TORRES: What other way home is there? Who is she to be making these decisions for all of us?
CHAKOTAY: She's the captain.

I can see Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Bush cozying up that quickly if they wound up as contestants on Big Brother together, absolutely. Ro Larin would have cut one of Janeways ears off and made a deal with the kazon. What's the difference between giving waste recycling tech to the Malon compared to water replication tech to the kazon?
 
The thing is a lot of viewers (myself included) believe she was right the instances you're referring to. Personally I believe that saving Tuvok and Neelix was the right thing to do - if you were in that situation wouldn't you want to know that your captain would do anything possible to get you back? I know I sure would!

Not if it meant killing someone to save me. Tuvix wasn't simply Tuvok and Neelix stuck together, he was a new lifeform, a new person. Janeway's mission is to seek out new life. As Picard would have said, "there it sits". If Tuvix had agreed to the proceedure, it would have been a fine, noble guesture on his part. Perhaps that would have been a better Trekkian happy ending. The trouble was that he refused to go through with it. As a sentient being, he had that right to choose. What Janeway did was murder, as the Doctor implied.


Janeway didn't want B'Elanna to die - how awful of her! The show brings up a good moral issue particularly when you consider that many of the medical advances and advantages you and I enjoy today were made at the cost of other lives. What is our moral responsibility when accepting/denying treatment?

I admit this is more debatable. My problem is more with the aftermath, when she orders B'Ellanna to shut up.
 
The thing about Janeway was that she was Jeri Taylor's Mary Sue: she could do no wrong or at least not suffer from her actions. Other writers may have wanted it to be more realistic but it wouldn't happen on Taylor's watch.

After reading all these posts about how Janeway never gets anything right it's a bit refreshing to find out she could do no wrong. ;)
 
The thing is a lot of viewers (myself included) believe she was right the instances you're referring to. Personally I believe that saving Tuvok and Neelix was the right thing to do - if you were in that situation wouldn't you want to know that your captain would do anything possible to get you back? I know I sure would!

Not if it meant killing someone to save me. Tuvix wasn't simply Tuvok and Neelix stuck together, he was a new lifeform, a new person. Janeway's mission is to seek out new life. As Picard would have said, "there it sits". If Tuvix had agreed to the proceedure, it would have been a fine, noble guesture on his part. Perhaps that would have been a better Trekkian happy ending. The trouble was that he refused to go through with it. As a sentient being, he had that right to choose. What Janeway did was murder, as the Doctor implied.

Tuvok and Neelix are also sentient beings and their voices were suppressed by Tuvix. It would have been murder to allow Tuvix to live.

It was a horrible decision any way you look at it but I do believe it was the correct one.
 
The thing is a lot of viewers (myself included) believe she was right the instances you're referring to. Personally I believe that saving Tuvok and Neelix was the right thing to do - if you were in that situation wouldn't you want to know that your captain would do anything possible to get you back? I know I sure would!

Not if it meant killing someone to save me. Tuvix wasn't simply Tuvok and Neelix stuck together, he was a new lifeform, a new person. Janeway's mission is to seek out new life. As Picard would have said, "there it sits". If Tuvix had agreed to the proceedure, it would have been a fine, noble guesture on his part. Perhaps that would have been a better Trekkian happy ending. The trouble was that he refused to go through with it. As a sentient being, he had that right to choose. What Janeway did was murder, as the Doctor implied.

Tuvok and Neelix are also sentient beings and their voices were suppressed by Tuvix. It would have been murder to allow Tuvix to live.

It was a horrible thing to have to choose either way you look at it but I do believe it was the correct decision.
 
The trouble with Voyager is that Janeway does some reprehensible things, but the episodes are sometimes written to suggest she is right.

The thing is a lot of viewers (myself included) believe she was right the instances you're referring to. Personally I believe that saving Tuvok and Neelix was the right thing to do - if you were in that situation wouldn't you want to know that your captain would do anything possible to get you back? I know I sure would!

The other one I remember is Nothing Human. It's an interesting story, in which ultimately the Doctor accepts that to use knowledge gained through horrific experimentation is wrong. Once again it's Janeway who orders the Doc to operate on B'Elanna, despite her clear wishes. At the end, Janeway has the gall to order her to forget about it. Can a captain really order someone what to think and feel? Again, it's almost accepted that she's right, and of course there is no follow-up. Torres and Janeway's relationship seems unimpaired in subsequent episodes.
Janeway didn't want B'Elanna to die - how awful of her! The show brings up a good moral issue particularly when you consider that many of the medical advances and advantages you and I enjoy today were made at the cost of other lives. What is our moral responsibility when accepting/denying treatment?

+1 Its one thing to think about hypothetical situations but people like Kant ignore the psychological ramifications one would suffer if they let a friend die because of some abstract moral obligation.
 
The first time she made up her mind and thought she was right, or later when she changed her mind because Kes was crying about losing the man she loves more than life itself and who she would spend the rest of her life with... Well, half a season.
 
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