Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we love

[BillJ]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Okay, who do you two smarty-pants think could have done a better job at the time?

The whole idea is that no one else was given an opportunity. Berman stayed until he had nearly driven the franchise to extinction. He reminds me of Riker squatting on the Enterprise XO position. There wasn't anything else he could accomplish but he wasn't going to give the job up.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

^What I'm asking is if Berman had decided to leave/step down as head honcho, who would have been the best candidate?

 

[BillJ]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

^What I'm asking is if Berman had decided to leave/step down as head honcho, who would have been the best candidate?

Like most candidates, probably someone from outside of the franchise. Probably someone from out of left field.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I couldn't have been happier with DS9 and TNG. Its when Brannon Braga and Jeri Taylor got involved is where I think things went wrong.

Jeri Taylor was involved since TNG season 5, and continued to be involved until Voyager's 4th season. At which point during this seven year period did "things go wrong?"

Jeri Taylor's biggest inflluence on TNG was in seasons 6 and 7, when Piller was almost entirely focused on running DS9 and, later, developing Voyager. And, if you ask me, season 7 is perhaps the weakest of TNG's run, even weaker than season 1.

Similarly, when Piller was at the helm of Voyager was when I thought that show was at its best. It started to go downhill somewhat when Taylor took over, and then really dropped off when Braga took over for her.

So, yeah, I'd say Jeri Taylor's tenure is, IMHO, one of lowered quality.

The best team in modern Trek, again IMHO, was Berman and Piller, with Berman and Behr being a close second.

I've just recently purchased the 'Unification' episode on Blu-Ray DVD, and she does a quite interesting commentary alongside the Okudas; the episode didn't seem so bad to me.

It seems (and correct me if I'm wrong) that people want what was on BSG to be what was on the TNG-era programs, and were pissed off (like RDM) when they didn't get it.

 

[eyeresist]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Copying the other movies is what made Nemesis such a colossal disappointment. They tried way too hard to recapture the spirit fo TWOK and First Contact, and the result was a dumb action movie full of Trek-clichés. "Vvvvillain attacks Earthhh, because.....REVENGE!!!!! He must be stopped! "

Yes I don't like Insurrection very much, because it's boring. But it was a way better TNG movie than Nemesis.

The problem with Nemesis isn't the idea, it's the execution. The director had no understanding of drama.

 

[The Wormhole]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Romulan Ale's been illegal since at least Kirk's time. See his and McCoy's "Beware Romulans bearing gifts" scene from TWOK.

But it was legalized in DS9's final season.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Romulan Ale's been illegal since at least Kirk's time. See his and McCoy's "Beware Romulans bearing gifts" scene from TWOK.

But it was legalized in DS9's final season.

Maybe it wasn't legalized on Earth itself? Each Federation member could have local laws as well.

 

[Isolinear]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The problem with Nemesis isn't the idea, it's the execution. The director had no understanding of drama.

The execution? Could you elaborate? The director shoots what's on the page. He didn't write the story.

I think the look and flow of the movie is fine. But if you actually pay attention to what's happening, it all falls apart. It's like a good piece of music with horrible lyrics.

 

[Noname Given]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

I think Rick Berman is the most underrated, most underappriciated individual well, like, of ALL time in ANY field... Think about it... When did TNG become good..? It was when Berman got the keys to the castle.. And when he did, he created this über enjoyable, warm palette, that was limited I must admit, but it was the Star Trek we came to love; the Star Trek of the Prime Universe... I think that if it wasn't for him, ST would have gotten a lot darker from 1995 on, cause television in general was getting darker... But he stuck with the ST philosophy, and despite the hatred for VOY and ENT, it was still ST, generating an untouchable positive vibe, that no other series can match... So all these people that bash the NuTrek films because it isn't 'ST', mostly they're Berman-bashers as well... But they're bashing the man who was responsible for the 'ST' they love the most... It a strange paradox I guess...

The Star Trek I love is/was the original Star Trek (1966-1969); the one with interesting and human characters and music, etc.

TNG with it's bland politically correct 24th century mannequins, and lame plots that often seemed shoehorned from other 1980/90'ies era drama shows; with a constant (and terrible A story/B story plot structure) and his bland requirement of 'sonic wallpaper' style music - which all carried over to the later Star trek series that Berman had a hand in...

No, Rick Berman was and always will be a hack IMO when it comes to Star Trek. YMMV.

 

[BillJ]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

No, Rick Berman was and always will be a hack IMO when it comes to Star Trek. YMMV.

I think the difference is that Roddenberry had a vision of the types of stories he wanted to tell and went through several years as a writer and creator before ever getting to Star Trek. Berman was never a writer and never had a vision nor the training as a writer.

He co-opted Roddenberry's universe even though he really didn't have any understanding of it. But he did get lucky and hire some great writers in Piller and Behr.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

TNG with it's bland politically correct 24th century mannequins, and lame plots that often seemed shoehorned from other 1980/90'ies era drama shows; with a constant (and terrible A story/B story plot structure) and his bland requirement of 'sonic wallpaper' style music - which all carried over to the later Star trek series that Berman had a hand in...

Least we (and you) forget, it was Roddenberry that created everything that was TNG, right down to the dictates that you blame Berman & Braga for; the only crime that both Berman & Braga should be guilty of is following them way too closely. Any and all PC 'mannerisms' (as if being considerate of other cultures and races, and always thinking about what to do next-which was done by Kirk, too-is somehow being weak or a crime. Okay.)

As for the sonic wallpaper-I'll take that over the same music cues being repeated over and over again on TOS.

As for the plots; what exactly was shoehorned from other 80's and 90's shows?

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Insurrection had the bones of a good story and a decent movie. It's just that Berman wanted a softer, more cuddly film to counteract the darkness of First Contact.

Whoever made the decision, it was a bad one.
First, FC was not a particularly dark film, especially coming after STVI (cold war, racist Kirk) and GEN (death of Kirk, Enterprise destroyed again). After those two, FC was basically a caper movie.
Second, what kind of knuckle-headed producer says "That last film was the biggest hit of the franchise - let's make the next one totally different"?

It was not Rick Berman who was the one pushing for a more lighthearted film with Insurrection. He actually commissioned Michael Piller who wrote a much darker script. However, as I understand it, Paramount Pictures wanted a film that was lighter in tone, similar to how TVH preceded two extremely serious films, and Patrick Stewart wanted to "lighten up" after his character had gone through quite a bit of emotional turmoil in the previous two films.

 

[suarezguy]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

The Star Trek I love is/was the original Star Trek (1966-1969); the one with interesting and human characters and music, etc.

TNG with it's bland politically correct 24th century mannequins

McCoy and Scotty obviously felt more contemporary than the 24th century characters but how was Kirk and the series overall not generally in line with the political standards (and/or idealistic views) of the '60s? I don't think having idealized characters, especially if they nonetheless have some flaws, equals blandness.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

McCoy and Scotty obviously felt more contemporary than the 24th century characters but how was Kirk and the series overall not generally in line with the political standards (and/or idealistic views) of the '60s? I don't think having idealized characters, especially if they nonetheless have some flaws, equals blandness.

Let me preface this by saying that I am a huge TNG fan, and that the characters are as dear to my heart as those from TOS.

That being said, even sitting here today in 2014, 48 years removed from the start of TOS and 27 years removed from the start of TNG, the TOS characters still feel more like real humans to me.

When TOS was made, they were trying to present a vision of a brighter future, yes. But that was just one piece of the storytelling tapestry, serving their ultimate goal of making entertaining television. By the time of the films and TNG, Roddenberry had begun to believe the hype of him being some significant visionary and about the greater purpose Star Trek served. He created TNG with that perspective, and tried to make the characters so far evolved from modern sensibilities that they were scarcely recognizable.

In short, TOS was just trying to tell good stories, and its characters come across better as a result. TNG, at least in its early years, was trying to service some greater social purpose, often at the expense of good drama, and its characters suffered as a result.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

^I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[David Ellerman]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Hooray to Jonas Grumby! I have always felt that Rick Berman had all of his taste for music in his mouth. Ron Jones at least took some Goldsmith themes and did well with them on TNG. The rest of the music for the series was like elevator music, you hear it but don't remember it. When he decided to use Dennis McCarthy for Generations that was that! Having a composer, who admits to preferring subtle scores to powerful ones, do a major movie score just showed Berman's tin ear.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

When he decided to use Dennis McCarthy for Generations that was that! Having a composer, who admits to preferring subtle scores to powerful ones, do a major movie score just showed Berman's tin ear.

Actually, Dennis McCarthy has been very open about the fact that he was no fan of Berman's "sonic wallpaper" approach to scoring either. Listen to McCarthy's scores from the first two seasons of TNG. They are much richer, more melodic, and more theme-driven than what he did later. The difference between McCarthy and Jones, though, is that when Berman gave the order for a specific type of score, McCarthy complied with the boss while Jones did not. McCarthy chalks it up to Jones being young and single while McCarthy had a family to feed.

That said, I have always thought McCarthy's score for Generations was quite good. It certainly wasn't the sonic wallpaper of TNG. Berman seems to have backed off on the scores to the films and let the composers have more of a free rein on them. I think McCarthy rose to the challenge well, and I think the Generations score is a good one.

 

[Zeke]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Agreed. The ST:G soundtrack was one of my first CDs, and I listened to it a ton. The main theme absolutely nailed the scope and grandeur a Trek movie should have. There's a lot to be said for Jerry Goldsmith's work on the later films, but his melodic style was kind of odd for Trek (especially a film about the Borg).


Re: main thread topic, nice to see people coming around. I defended Berman a lot in the VOY/ENT days, partly because I liked his work fine, but mostly because the level of hate directed at him was so disproportionate. You'd think he was president or something.

 

[Robert Comsol]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

When did TNG become good..? It was when Berman got the keys to the castle... I think that if it wasn't for him, ST would have gotten a lot darker from 1995 on, cause television in general was getting darker...

I believe you are forgetting the contributions of Michael Piller. On behalf of Rick Berman I think it's fair to say that he (and Michael Piller) were very keen on keeping Star Trek in a way they felt Gene Roddenberry would have wished for.

Indeed, had Ronald D. Moore gotten his way, TNG would have become a lot darker. One of the vivid examples is the end of "Redemption II".
Ron Moore wanted - you could almost say aggressively - Worf to kill the Duras kid, but Berman and Piller said "no".

Bob

 

[Trek Survivor]

Re: Isn't it time we realize Rick Berman was the genius of the ST we l

Indeed, had Ronald D. Moore gotten his way, TNG would have become a lot darker.

...And would have been absolutely awful.