Isn't it dumb to only have 1 Doctor on Voyager and NX-01 Enterprise?

[Prax]

I'm sure the whole crew would've been mostly aboard no matter what their first mission was. I'm not sure what science the scientists do, but I think ensign wildman did planetary surveys, and the delaney sisters worked in stellar cartography. Maybe they competed with the Borg in astrometrics for who could plan the fastest routes and save the most gas money.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

You have to have a limited number of scientists on board simply because you will be facing the unknown. It would be smart to have a crew whose knowledge of where, say, a ship could be hiding from sensors, or what kind of geological/biological challenges you might face while chasing them on the surface of a planet to their lair. It's not like you're bringing along people whose primary expertise is in early Andorian wall art or Klingon poetry. These are people whose area of expertise and ability to extrapolate and adapt make them useful on a mission of unknowns.

Plus, there was always the possibility that they'd get lost, though maybe not quite as lost as they did...

 

[Sophie74656]

I got the impression there was more than one person in the Voyager medical staff and they just all died in the initial jolt.

Yes, if you watch the first episode there is a doctor and at least one nurse. They were both killed.

 

[thewanderingjack]

ensign wildman did planetary surveys

Xenobiologist, which should have made her the most qualified medical expert, barring someone else showing up. It would necessitate an understanding of medicine (if only general humanoid medicine).

You have to have a limited number of scientists on board simply because you will be facing the unknown.

Granted... but that probably would included more biological/medical scientists than seems apparent... like the xenobiologist... seems like everyone (including this thread) forgot about Wildman (well, there was one mention earlier in the thread than Prax).

 

[Enterprise1701]

I should point out the impression I got after watching many doctors on Trek. They aren't pill pushers, or try it and see, or take this and call me in the morning, doctors. At some point their medical knowledge has reached a particularly deep understanding on the cellular level - why this works, scientifically speaking, what is wrong with it, and their medical scanners are so advanced they can see what's going on in short order instead of eating 4 hours for a cat scan and then being told that's not good enough so now wait longer for an MRI, etc. So it isn't as bad as, hey, that's a different species and I have no idea what works or not. They have a reasonably good idea based on a deep, scientific understanding of life and the biochemistry that makes it work far beyond today's modern doctors, so regardless of what species they are looking at, they got a pretty good idea and what's going on.

Of course nothing beats actual experience when you delve too deeply into the guts of another person, so surgery on an unfamiliar alien is always harder - but that's more mechanical practice than knowledge of internal medicine.

And don't forget, for whatever reason of parallel development they wish to use to explain why most aliens look like dressed up humans, most of them are eating the same foods, breathing the same air, drinking the same liquids, and probably (though they really shouldn't) have more in common, medically speaking, than they have differences. While there are doubtless Federation members who are different enough, they wouldn't be serving on a starship, or at least most starships, but perhaps one dedicated to their own species then. Most ships we see are one designed around earth-human-like norms and those aliens that are fine with it (mostly).

I too have never liked this unrealistic aspect of Trek, but it's long since been established as a standard in sci-fi.

And another inconsistency never addressed by Trek is how multiple species can serve aboard a single pseudo-military starship efficiently. Even with "The Chase" factored in, that doesn't account for different planets having different day/night cycles. There's no way every species in the Federation operates on a 24-hour biological clock.

I do suppose though, that since Trek has the universal humanoid environment excuse, it is somewhat relieving that we almost never see Prometheus-levels of stupidity in not wearing environmental suits on alien worlds.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Perhaps there are methods of conditioning people slowly, or if all else fails, drugs/technological aids.

 

[thewanderingjack]

not only diffferent length day/night cycles, but atmospheres, gravity, lighting (certain species on earth need certain light waves for biological processes, as we do with melanin and uvb). There's one thing I recall thinking touched this, in a single case... the Benzite apparatus (no-hands harmonica?) seems to let out some (mixture of) gas(es), which, given it's distance from their mouth/nose, would mix with the human atmosphere to make it more like his. There was also the atmosphere (and it's effects on Tripp) in the Xyrillian ship (ENT:Unexpected).

in STU, we should assume that the Goldy Locks Zone, if applicable, is far more broad, so this should be a bigger issue... I liked that about the Vorlon (and others) in Babylon 5.. they needed their own areas, they wore survival/atmospheric suits... yesss Eeeeexcellllent.

Conditioning and chimical intervention would work... to a point, and necessitate (variable) adjustment periods)

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Lothra http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Yalosian DS9 had to accomodate this kind of thing all the time for visitors.

 

[Prax]

I too have never liked this unrealistic aspect of Trek, but it's long since been established as a standard in sci-fi.

And another inconsistency never addressed by Trek is how multiple species can serve aboard a single pseudo-military starship efficiently. Even with "The Chase" factored in, that doesn't account for different planets having different day/night cycles. There's no way every species in the Federation operates on a 24-hour biological clock.

I do suppose though, that since Trek has the universal humanoid environment excuse, it is somewhat relieving that we almost never see Prometheus-levels of stupidity in not wearing environmental suits on alien worlds.

They're human ships. Aliens are just given the priviledge of serving them.

 

[JRTStarlight]

Even a biological clock is just a sort of chemical reaction, which might be altered by understanding it and using the right drugs or supplements. As long as they aren't too strong or addictive, and aren't just uppers and downers, those docs can probably reset your biorhythms with vitamin supplements and dietary changes or light therapy, etc., since they understand chemically what they are.

But more naturally, those that can adopt and adapt to standard Federation starship routines will apply - others won't, or will apply to other ships with different routines, environments, or whatever they need. We are one big happy fleet.

It just an unfortunate fact (or fortunate) our shows tend to revolve around mostly human centric crews, or aliens that can adapt to a 24 hour days, 1 g, standard oxygen/nitrogen environment at around 100 kilopascals pressure. I bet the conditions were different on the Intrepid with nothing but vulcans on board. HOT. Dry. Whew. Or whatever.

 

[Timo]

The thing is, if those Ancients from "The Chase" really promoted the emergence of humanoid life the way they say (and we'd better believe them - even Odo has DNA!), then their offspring would have had aeons to turn most planets in the Milky Way into more or less identical copies of the original ideal, i.e. the original Earth.

Terraforming would eventually lead into a more or less homogeneous galaxy: if you can live on an Earth copy, you thrive and terraform further Earths, and if you cannot, you are at a disadvantage and lose to those living on copies of Earth.

Basically, it sounds quite possible that the vast majority of UFP member species lives on worlds located 1 AU from their star and rotating once every 24 hours, give or take a few percentage points. They breathe the same sort of gases and eat the same sort of food (thus including each other!), this all being dictated by the billenia-old terraforming effort.

That they also are capable of mating with each other and producing offspring is not attributable to the terraforming, but to the original and enduring meddling of the Ancients. But being able to survive in the roughly Earthlike Class M environment is a natural consequence of the backstory.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JRTStarlight]

The thing is, if those Ancients from "The Chase" really promoted the emergence of humanoid life the way they say (and we'd better believe them - even Odo has DNA!), then their offspring would have had aeons to turn most planets in the Milky Way into more or less identical copies of the original ideal, i.e. the original Earth.

Terraforming would eventually lead into a more or less homogeneous galaxy: if you can live on an Earth copy, you thrive and terraform further Earths, and if you cannot, you are at a disadvantage and lose to those living on copies of Earth.

Basically, it sounds quite possible that the vast majority of UFP member species lives on worlds located 1 AU from their star and rotating once every 24 hours, give or take a few percentage points. They breathe the same sort of gases and eat the same sort of food (thus including each other!), this all being dictated by the billenia-old terraforming effort.

That they also are capable of mating with each other and producing offspring is not attributable to the terraforming, but to the original and enduring meddling of the Ancients. But being able to survive in the roughly Earthlike Class M environment is a natural consequence of the backstory.

So the suggestion is that evolution's end product on all seeded worlds was designed to be humanoid, and so one wonders why so many non-humanoids inhabit the earth using those same DNA codes. I guess they must be suggesting every one of them is still evolving toward a humanoid shape. Not us, though, for we're done and evolution has already finished with us. Oh, and some old dinosaurs achieved humanoid form on Earth first, and then took off, leaving no real trace of their mighty civilization.

I know a genome as complex as a human's has places to hide a bit of code, both as part of a hidden program (that's so good it can alter a tricorder's hardware), but to hide whole humanoid template in all life as well? Much of life is too simple to hide that kind of coding. I'm not a geneticist, but I'm pretty sure whoever wrote this didn't appreciate or well understand DNA, genes, and genomes and the evolutionary process. But it's canon - ohhhh.

I don't see why you'd think everyone is shooting for an Earth standard world, too, or would have the same idea of seeding other worlds like this since the original reason is gone. Sheer loneliness. And they did say they seeded on worlds where life had already taken root, so DNA and life is probably common enough on its own. But the claim all life since it began has that stuff in it is probably wrong unless it sought out old life and old civilizations to destroy it or assimilate it. But why use only worlds with life on it already?

For this topic, at least, one can be assured it you don't have enough doctors on board, eventually a humanoid one will evolve.

 

[Timo]

So the suggestion is that evolution's end product on all seeded worlds was designed to be humanoid, and so one wonders why so many non-humanoids inhabit the earth using those same DNA codes. I guess they must be suggesting every one of them is still evolving toward a humanoid shape.

More probably, the programming picks one promising naturally evolved lifeform and perverts that into a bipedal sapient humanoid. On Earth, they first did it with dinosaurs, and then did it again with apes. On Cardassia, who knows what sort of a thing the Code dragged from under a desert rock? Once perverting one lifeform into planetary dominance through sapience, though, the Code would go passive on others.

Not us, though, for we're done and evolution has already finished with us.

In what sense? RW, Trek? That's not really indicated. And it seems the fate of sapient bipeds in Trek is to further evolve into noncorporeal entities, just like at least Zalkonians and Ocampa and Organians have done so far. "Evolve" in the sense of unnatural change towards a goal, that is - the episode writer actually carefully avoids using the word "evolution" except in connection with the word "directed".

I know a genome as complex as a human's has places to hide a bit of code, both as part of a hidden program (that's so good it can alter a tricorder's hardware), but to hide whole humanoid template in all life as well? Much of life is too simple to hide that kind of coding.

It no doubt would lie in the fictional fine structure rather than at the currently discernible molecular level... Heck, since we know Odo combines a DNA-based body with the ability to shunt his mass to some other realm altogether, perhaps the Code in fact lies in such an alternate realm?

I don't see why you'd think everyone is shooting for an Earth standard world, too, or would have the same idea of seeding other worlds like this since the original reason is gone.

It's the winning strategy, is all. Anybody trying to be innovative will fare worse than those going with the flow, and increasingly so as the flow strenghtens from generation to generation of species. So while few might wish to seed further as such, all will engage in creating more worlds where the original seed will have good chances of settling in and doing yet another round of "directing", as the Ancient chastely puts it.

And they did say they seeded on worlds where life had already taken root, so DNA and life is probably common enough on its own.

Or then the seeding selected for DNA-like forms of existence, and all but one died out in the subsequent "go with the flow" process.

But the claim all life since it began has that stuff in it is probably wrong unless it sought out old life and old civilizations to destroy it or assimilate it.

That no doubt was the practical result of introducing a superior form of life...

But why use only worlds with life on it already?

Good question. And no idea, except that the presence of life would suggest conditions suitable for the presence of life like nothing else!

For this topic, at least, one can be assured it you don't have enough doctors on board, eventually a humanoid one will evolve.

...All it takes is to Read The Fine Manual, after all. In holographic form if books are too dull.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JRTStarlight]

Once perverting one lifeform into planetary dominance through sapience, though, the Code would go passive on others.

Clever code, how it knows what's out there. It must have scanner capability written into to it, too, or the ability to communicate with neighboring code in other creatures. Noice.

In what sense? RW, Trek? That's not really indicated. And it seems the fate of sapient bipeds in Trek is to further evolve into noncorporeal entities, just like at least Zalkonians and Ocampa and Organians have done so far. "Evolve" in the sense of unnatural change towards a goal, that is - the episode writer actually carefully avoids using the word "evolution" except in connection with the word "directed".

Avoiding the word evolution is, well . . . But if the 4 billion old first ones make all this to evolve toward humanoids, if one evolved further, the code might try to bring them back since it's designed to go toward humanoid. Unless the code shuts itself off and is done with you once you achieve that goal, and then maybe natural evolution can take place again and you might reach a non corporeal state.

It no doubt would lie in the fictional fine structure rather than at the currently discernible molecular level... Heck, since we know Odo combines a DNA-based body with the ability to shunt his mass to some other realm altogether, perhaps the Code in fact lies in such an alternate realm?

Fictional fine structure, eh? But they found it in base pair sequences and not something finer like picowriting or picocoding on some finer structure. But I dunno.

It's the winning strategy, is all. Anybody trying to be innovative will fare worse than those going with the flow, and increasingly so as the flow strenghtens from generation to generation of species. So while few might wish to seed further as such, all will engage in creating more worlds where the original seed will have good chances of settling in and doing yet another round of "directing", as the Ancient chastely puts it.

That's one controlling code. Guess we don't have free will. Well, who needs it anyway?

Then since their spiral pattern had limited choices, doubtless they sped up, slowed down, or moved planets to a GL zone, or "terraformed" them, too. But then the Earth's rotational speed has been changing a great deal over billions of years. It's gone from 3 or 4 hours since the first ones seeded the planet to around 24 hours today, but it needed that huge moon to do that. They'd probably be wise to pick other 24 hour planets that had no moon, like Vulcan. WTF was Spock prime standing on, anyway, that he could see Vulcan as a disc in the sky and not a dot of light? Meh.

Good question. And no idea, except that the presence of life would suggest conditions suitable for the presence of life like nothing else!

I would think they could tell by other measurements, and needn't destroy such life in favor of its new matrix. Ha.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Clever code, how it knows what's out there.[...] I would think they could tell by other measurements, and needn't destroy such life in favor of its new matrix. Ha.

Some great points, but okay how about if the Code (I like that moniker btw) is like a retro-virus... creating a mix between the original genecode and another lifeform (a la ENT:Extinction... but for lower lifeorms... maybe it was in fact, seeded into pre-selected lifeforms (as oppose to it figuring this all out itself), vaunting them into the spot as prime animals... so basically the Seeders were manipulating emerging life to make it more like them (or crating version of themselves that incorporated locally developed DNA traits, to help it's survival. Their idea of colonization.

 

[JRTStarlight]

That's possibly a way to do it (ask a biologist or geneticist) but there would be evidence of that stuff in the code, and as Geordie said, no way is that natural.

 

[thewanderingjack]

That's possibly a way to do it (ask a biologist or geneticist) but there would be evidence of that stuff in the code, and as Geordie said, no way is that natural.

The Chase made it clear that is possible (there was such a code, unfound until then, in human genes). What do you mean natural (I must've missed that comment)?

 

[thewanderingjack]

That's possibly a way to do it (ask a biologist or geneticist) but there would be evidence of that stuff in the code, and as Geordie said, no way is that natural.

The Chase made it clear that is possible (there was such a code, unfound until then, in human genes. What do you mean natural (must've missed that)?

 

[JRTStarlight]

The Chase made it clear that is possible (there was such a code, unfound until then, in human genes). What do you mean natural (I must've missed that comment)?

Just because they do it in fiction doesn't make it possible in and of itself. If it is contrary to natural law, finding water that runs uphill should pull your attention in fiction, and if it's not explained in the story, it seems stupid, like maybe even the author wasn't being clever so much as he's apparently ignorant of natural law. I'm not saying you can't have or invent a reason - I'm saying if it's contrary to known science, you should explain it, or try, and by acknowledging it that way, you at least show you are not ignorant of the facts or just unintentionally did something stupid and for no reason.

Geordie was looking at the code, IIRC, and say a pattern in there (the puzzle, I guess) that he recognized was so astronomically improbable that it obviously wasn't natural. This we could see and should be able to see. Another has proposed only the puzzle is on that level, and everything else this code does is on a much smaller level below the genetic code - like writing on electrons might be, and making those self replicating. I don't even begin to understand how that might be done, but that alone doesn't make it impossible, I guess. And not being a geneticist, I can't say for sure, but too much seems wrong, and some wild speculation abounds as to how that might work to drive (well, not evolution if its controlled) life toward humanoid form, as if evolution had an end product in mind, wasn't natural, and could do other extraordinary things, like reconfigure the hardware of a tricorder or other, well, I'm gonna call it nonsense. I didn't like that aspect of the story, or feel it was necessary to make the rest of the story work, so I gave it a lower grade. My POV. YMMV.

 

[thewanderingjack]

Just because they do it in fiction doesn't make it possible in and of itself. If it is contrary to natural law, finding water that runs uphill should pull your attention in fiction, and if it's not explained in the story, it seems stupid, like maybe even the author wasn't being clever so much as he's apparently ignorant of natural law. I'm not saying you can't have or invent a reason - I'm saying if it's contrary to known science, you should explain it, or try, and by acknowledging it that way, you at least show you are not ignorant of the facts or just unintentionally did something stupid and for no reason.[\QUOTE]

Didn't mean to imply actually possible, just possible in-world. The teleporter, replicator, holodeck, time travel etc aren't actually explained, and I'm pretty sure if we used our science to try and explain it they'd fall apart (and often do). The puzzle was created by being well beyond the SF tech... I say he didn't explain it because he couldn't, not because there wasn't an explanation.

Geordie was looking at the code, IIRC, and say a pattern in there (the puzzle, I guess) that he recognized was so astronomically improbable that it obviously wasn't natural. This we could see and should be able to see. Another has proposed only the puzzle is on that level, and everything else this code does is on a much smaller level below the genetic code - like writing on electrons might be, and making those self replicating. I don't even begin to understand how that might be done, but that alone doesn't make it impossible, I guess. And not being a geneticist, I can't say for sure, but too much seems wrong, and some wild speculation abounds as to how that might work to drive (well, not evolution if its controlled) life toward humanoid form, as if evolution had an end product in mind, wasn't natural, and could do other extraordinary things, like reconfigure the hardware of a tricorder or other, well, I'm gonna call it nonsense. I didn't like that aspect of the story, or feel it was necessary to make the rest of the story work, so I gave it a lower grade. My POV. YMMV.

Ah, right... so this actually is possible (writing messages in genes). They're not on the genes like "on paper," they use gene sequences as a code that can be translated into a readable language (though you could do it the other way I guess) or by creating "molecular shapes/markers." People sign GMO genes this way.
The fact that no one has discovered this (in-world) before now is fairly easily explained too, given they've never defined how far along in genetics people are. There's tons of human gene code we have no idea about right now. Obviously they know enough to make genetically modified people... but then you only have to know stuff about what you're targeting, not what everything in the genome does. It's also made clear that most of the puzzle is from non-Federation worlds... if they didn't have enough samples that contained it, they would've never seen a pattern before now.

The guided evolution via genetic manipulation in the way they portray (with a specific end goal form in mind, and without further manipulation along the process, which we don't know about) does seem a bit far fetched... maybe. The natural process of evolution would have a deep impact on whatever genetics they put in there... but then, they were kind of humanoid blanks: their appearance seemed to be that of all their humanoid offspring minus distinguishing characteristics: bipedal locomotion, symmetric features consisting of 2 eyes, 2 ears, 2 nostrils, mouth, (I assume ten fingers and toes and sexual organs that are compatible (we can assume this between Klingons and Humans, Humans and Vulcans, and by extension Humans and Romulans)), same general proportions... so the real problem with it would be, "if you put this code into the earliest (or even just early) forms of life, why have other things evolved (on the same planet, in the same span) from that same life not developed to the same design and level?" There's very little evidence to support that (a few examples of "creatures that haven't evolved since the X period")... and would probably need the response of selectively breeding, picking and choosing which species to let evolve, or something like that.

Not everything gets (or needs) an immediate and thorough answer, part of leaving it open means there's a chance to tell a good story in the future.