Is VOY a good show to segue into after TNG for a newbie like my roommate?

[Ragitsu]

This whole "Kes is underage!" angle - especially from science-fiction fans who ought to know better (regarding species who mature at different rates) - got real old long ago. What's next: "Arwen's disparity in age with Aragorn is not okay."? "Vulcans should never court Humans."? "Trill should only love other Trill."?

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

TOS IS TOO CHEESY?!?! It's a bonafide classic!!!

Saying TOS is too cheesy is like saying classic westerns like The Searchers, True Grit, Shane, The Outlaw Josey Wales, and Unforgiven are cheesy!

I'm deeply offended. >

That said, if she liked TNG, then VOY is just more of the same. I look at it as TNG v2, just not as good.


I look at Neelix as a space trucking man who lured and was grooming pre-teen girl Kes.

It was a horrible idea that I still can't fathom how it was okayed for the show. It should never ever have happened. It's a real blight on Voyager.

Yeah it's not an uncommon sentiment regarding TOS. Even I used to share the sentiment. It's funny though that its the Star Trek that's most ingrained in pop culture hence why the reboot movies for example chose the TOS characters, and she likes those movies.

 

[Akiraprise]

This whole "Kes is underage!" angle - especially from science-fiction fans who ought to know better (regarding species who mature at different rates) - got real old long ago. What's next: "Arwen's disparity in age with Aragorn is not okay."? "Vulcans should never court Humans."? "Trill should only love other Trill."?

I agree. Although the discussion of whether a 40 year old Neelix should have been courting a 20 year old abused Kes has some merit. Only because we were never really given much background on how they met. It could have been handled better.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

This whole "Kes is underage!" angle - especially from science-fiction fans who ought to know better (regarding species who mature at different rates) - got real old long ago. What's next: "Arwen's disparity in age with Aragorn is not okay."? "Vulcans should never court Humans."? "Trill should only love other Trill."?

I guess the feeling is she wouldn't be mature intellectually in only a few years though im not sure I buy that now that I think of it. Regardless it wasn't one of the better parts of VOY anyway

 

[Ragitsu]

Kes seemed more mature/empathetic than certain members of the Voyager crew; in point of fact, she was the one to make Janeway really consider The Doctor's burgeoning volition.

 

[AntonyF]

Kes seemed more mature/empathetic than certain members of the Voyager crew; in point of fact, she was the one to make Janeway really consider The Doctor's burgeoning volition.

I have to agree with you on all this. It's creepy if you see it as creepy. But if you see it as the writer's intended that basically Ocampa turn into fully functional adults quickly then it's fine through that prism.

You could argue that experience comes from life skills and learning, but you could pick apart any Star Trek alien if you want to go that route. Is Guinan as she's hundreds of years old exerting influence over the Humans in their 40s? As an age gap that's pretty substantial and could indicate a power imbalance.

Perhaps there is a certain amount of genetic knowledge that is passed down from parent to child in the Ocampa, which would make sense given how quickly the Ocampa become functional. It might explain how they can build cities and a civilisation, otherwise they'd never get anything done if they had to wait for people to skill up then they died before completing school.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Could always jump right into the present and try Strange New Worlds, which is the modern version of the TOS/TNG/VOY/ENT formula show

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Could always jump right into the present and try Strange New Worlds, which is the modern version of the TOS/TNG/VOY/ENT formula show

I hope this means season 4 is going to be a banger.

 

[Ragitsu]

Bangers and mash?

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

Could always jump right into the present and try Strange New Worlds, which is the modern version of the TOS/TNG/VOY/ENT formula show

Dont have Paramount Plus ATM but eventually I'll introduce SNW to her

 

[Set Harth]

What's next: "Arwen's disparity in age with Aragorn is not okay."?

Nobody cares because (a) Aragorn's a boy, and (b) he's not exactly a spring chicken himself.
Basically there's no impulse to white knight the situation from the usual suspects because it's not a dastardly adult male preying on some young girl.

 

[DonIago]

This whole "Kes is underage!" angle - especially from science-fiction fans who ought to know better (regarding species who mature at different rates) - got real old long ago. What's next: "Arwen's disparity in age with Aragorn is not okay."? "Vulcans should never court Humans."? "Trill should only love other Trill."?

In principle I agree, but humans being flawed beings and all, I can understand how some people struggle with buying into the premise.

That said, having a significant age disparity between the actors probably wasn't helpful either.

Ironic that Kes often ended up seeming (far) more mature than Neelix.

 

[Ragitsu]

Nobody cares because (a) Aragorn's a boy, and (b) he's not exactly a spring chicken himself.
Basically there's no impulse to white knight the situation from the usual suspects because it's not a dastardly adult male preying on some young girl.

One being is thousands of years old while the other has yet to crack a century; "consenting adults" - apparently - falls way when numbers enter the picture (irrespective of actual maturity)...except when it does not. I have come to learn that consistency in these opinions is only ever a luxury.

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

All good points on the Neelix/Kes relationship. Gave me some food for thought

 

[rocketscientist]

Nobody cares because (a) Aragorn's a boy, and (b) he's not exactly a spring chicken himself.
Basically there's no impulse to white knight the situation from the usual suspects because it's not a dastardly adult male preying on some young girl.

Aragorn, was, I think over 85 years old at the time of Lord of the Rings. Maybe a bit older.

One being is thousands of years old while the other has yet to crack a century; "consenting adults" - apparently - falls way when numbers enter the picture (irrespective of actual maturity)...except when it does not. I have come to learn that consistency in these opinions is only ever a luxury.

Problem is, Yes has only 2 years of experience, maybe only 1 year as an adult.

Aragorn was over 80 decades old during LOTR. He'd been around.

Kes just hasn't.

It just doesn't survive scrutiny.

I have to agree with you on all this. It's creepy if you see it as creepy.

Nope, it is creepy, period.

Doesn't matter if the writers intended her to be mature at 2 years, under scrutiny, it falls apart.

Neelix took advantage of her and, worse, it looks like Janeway and company were complicit. No questions asked at all about the nature and appropriateness of their relationship, not even any reason given why Kes should be considered a completely mature adult at 2 years old.

Again, it's the elephant in the room. It should never ever have happened.

 

[Set Harth]

Aragorn was over 80 decades old during LOTR.

Um, no, not quite.

 

[Ragitsu]

Problem is, Yes has only 2 years of experience, maybe only 1 year as an adult.

...

It just doesn't survive scrutiny.

Yet, she behaves as a roughly twenty to twenty-five year-old old human.

By the way, it is slightly amusing how Hal Jordan is lecturing others about age differences within romantic relationships (I say this as someone whose favorite Lantern is Hal).

not even any reason given why Kes should be considered a completely mature adult at 2 years old.

The fact that she is a competent to excellent nurse, in addition to a not-too-shabby telepath? How many toddlers do you know are employed as part of the medical staff at your local hospital?

 

[CetiAlphanEel]

I know nothing on LOTR so at a disadvantage here lol

 

[rocketscientist]

Yet, she behaves as a roughly twenty to twenty-five year-old old human.

By the way, it is slightly amusing how Hal Jordan is lecturing others about age differences within romantic relationships (I say this as someone whose favorite Lantern is Hal).

Yes, I've heard this before and it's warranted.

The Hal+Arisia thing was horrible just like Neelix-Kes. I don't know why Steve Englehart thought that was a good idea or how DC editors did either. It's just awful. Geoff Johns knew it to and tried to address it, but, imo, it was weak.

Hopefully, after Flashpoint, Rebirth, and, what, Death Metal (haven't gotten to that yet), the whole Arisia became a lantern as a kid thing has been retconned out. It's absurd anyway. Kids shouldn't be GLs/space cops.

The fact that she is a competent to excellent nurse, in addition to a not-too-shabby telepath? How many toddlers do you know are employed as part of the medical staff at your local hospital?

None, obviously. But I'm not saying Kes is a toddler. I'm saying she probably doesn't have the romantic experience or wisdom with only 2 years of real time living. Neelix knew better. He took advantage of Kes.

Um, no, not quite.

8 decades. I was off by an order of magnitude.

How embarrassing.

 

[AntonyF]

I'm saying she probably doesn't have the romantic experience or wisdom with only 2 years of real time living. Neelix knew better.

For a nine year lifespan when do they suddenly have romantic experience or wisdom?

If you're going to equate her to a human, are you saying a two year old toddler would be a no go but by the time she's what... seven... she's fair game?

Or do you need to accept that the Ocampa may be a flawed concept but you have go to along with the conceit that they don't mature like humans do? And as I said above, this goes to all matters of Ocampa life. How do they have architects and surgeons if the race doesn't in some way offer an accelerated society? What age are they old enough to build a nuclear reactor or do heart surgery?