Is Tuvix a real person?

[MacLeod]

If Tuvix had been allowed to live, Janeway would have killed two people.
By restoring the lives of Tuvok and Neelix, she only killed one.

I guess that's a win.

How would Janeway have killed two people if she allowed Tuvix to live?

What direct and premediated action did she take to kill these two people?

Remember using the trasnsporter is not without risk, it could malfunction which is what happend in Tuvix. They accepted the risk that they might forfit their lives if the worst happened.

 

[Orphalesion]

Jesus read ahead.

You can do that when you're God.

Worried to derail the threat but no....Jesus actually was afraid of dying and begged God not to make him suffer such a horrible fate, but went through with it anyway.

People are capable of sacrificing themselves for the benefit of others. It's not that much of a foreign concept.
Tuvix would have certainly been more noble had he done so, but him not wanting to cease to exist for the benefit of Neelix and Tuvok is also perfectly understandable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh, derail away.

JC had doubt that he was strong enough to endure Crucifixion in the Garden of Gethsemane.

But there's (way more than) two ways of looking at how he asked the question about passing on his burden.

1. He was asking God who he thought as a separate identity, who he was not completely attached to yet, for a solid.

2. He was asking god, who was him. Which means that it was a self affirmation, since he already had the power to save himself and didn't have to beg for shit. JesusGod was vocalizing an internal monologue rather than praying to someone else for charity.

...

Oddly, I'm reminded of HoloJaneway who killed the Clown in The Thaw for some reason.

...

This is from a britcom called Outnumbed...

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mya5hx2NXkI[/yt]

Oh, and lets not forget Longinus and the Spear of destiny.

Just doing his job, just following orders, executing a trouble maker and whammo, suddenly he's cursed with immortality because he stabbed Jesus a little WHICH WAS PART OF THE PLAN.

If you let a diuretic cat sleep in your bed, you shouldn't be angry with the cat when it wets your bed.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Well Jesus had 3 halves (yes) and one of them was people. People cannot see into the future unless they are Jedi, not even a little bit. Half the time they can't see the bleeding obvious right in their faces. And Jesus shifted in and out of his three parts, the god part, the spirit part and the people part.

Unfortunately when it came to being faced with a hideous death by torture he was stuck in the people part. It was out of his control to shift from spirit to god to people and back, that lack of control was also a function of his people part. If he had been in the god part or spirit part he would have been utterly chill and not afraid but unfortunately it either wasn't their turn or there are some eschatological rules that kept him stuck in the people part when faced with a death by torture.

So he was scared shitless and as Orph correctly points out unlike Obi-Wan he did not peacefully allow himself to be slain. Only the god and spirit parts knew that Jesus would become more powerful than you could imagine once he was struck down not the people part because, limitations.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh, honey, it's called a Trinity.

But lets look at this... He had a good cry in the garden, forgave Judas before the Kiss, actually I saw something on the History channel about the Book of Judas, a missing chapter to the bible, that elaborates how Judas was in on the fix and under orders from Jesus to betray Jesus to ensure that the crucifixion took place when and how it was supposed to, buds, and then Jesus told Peter that he would deny Jesus three times.

I don't see any reason to believe that he sometimes couldn't remember the future.

As for what his power set was on the cross...

My Art History teacher at secondary school explained this to me, that there was a prophecy/rule that Christ was not allowed to have any broken bones, it's one of the ways that Jesus proved that he was God.

On the third day, the Romans had a scheduled break for JC, because they wanted him to stay up there for several weeks in agony, so that everyone walking past knows not to fuck with Rome, the problem was that because they didn't want these convicts to run away as soon as they became unbound, what the Centurions did during these timeouts, was to break the crusifixees legs.

That simply couldn't happen or he's not god.

So Jesus willed himself dead in an instant, which if you think about it is something he could have done all along, and spared himself the pain of what was to come, but that wouldn't have made half the show 3 days in the sun did.

The Romans didn't do shit to Jesus.

He did it to himself like an attention seeking drama queen cutting into their arms for sympathy from idiots.

 

[MacLeod]

I started this thread believing that Tuvix was a unique sentient life form but that Janeway had not murdered him since nothing of him had been destroyed.

I've now changed my mind. Tuvix was never a unique sentient life form at all. Sentient yes but not true unique sentience. His sentience is entirely built on the genuinely unique sentience of both Tuvok and Neelix. It is combination of minds battling to make sense of the world and Tuvix is the manifestation of that battle

Those who claim Tuvix was uniquely sentient are unwittingly suggesting that sentience comes from a location other than the physical. They are suggesting that his sentience is not dependant upon the physicality of Tuvok and Neelix. This is clearly nonsense. Tuvix cannot exist without stealing life from both Tuvok and Neelix but Tuvok and Neelix can exist without requiring anything of Tuvix

His sentience was a trick of the light. Not unique at all but simply two personalities trying to make sense of the world and their emotions.

Plus, Janeway did not force Tuvix to be separated. At the very end he accepts it. No kicking, no screaming, just fear

And that's the point of his desire to live (which is often used as proof of his uniqueness) It's based on fear, not on proven unique sentience. Tuvok had access to the emotions of Neelix and Neelix had access to Tuvoks sense of logic.

They provided each other with an opportunity to experience something they had never had before. Something they both secretly enjoyed. There was a fear it would end, there was a fear it could go wrong. There was fear. That fear manifested itself in Tuvix as a desire to live

But had Tuvix truly had a desire to live, he would have stolen a phaser, punched Janeway, tried to run, kicked and screamed at every available opportunity, clawed at life in every way he could.......but he didn't. After an initial plea and appeal based on fear, Tuvok and Neelix then calm down and this consequently results in Tuvix finally accepting the separation.

Would a truly sentient life form accept death like that?

Or Tuvix realised that it was futile to resist any further, there is little point in continuing to resist when a certain point had been reached. Janeway was going to do the deed regardless if he accepted it or not. Even if it invovled restraining him, waiting to he had gone to sleep etc... When faced with a situtation we can not win do any of us know how we would react?

 

[Orphalesion]

But lets look at this... He had a good cry in the garden, forgave Judas before the Kiss, actually I saw something on the History channel about the Book of Judas, a missing chapter to the bible, that elaborates how Judas was in on the fix and under orders from Jesus to betray Jesus to ensure that the crucifixion took place when and how it was supposed to, buds, and then Jesus told Peter that he would deny Jesus three times.

That's Gnosticism if I remember correctly, Gnosticism alo hold the belief that Jesus was never human, just "seemed human" or something like that.

The idea a lot of mainstream Christianity has is that Jesus needed serve as a sacrifice so that humans even had a chance for redemption.

At least in early Christanity it was also not universally accepted that Jesu was God and the Gospels could be read both ways.

I alway liked the human interpretation of Christ better, it makes the sacrifice more meaningful.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Or Tuvix realised that it was futile to resist any further, there is little point in continuing to resist when a certain point had been reached. Janeway was going to do the deed regardless if he accepted it or not. Even if it invovled restraining him, waiting to he had gone to sleep etc... When faced with a situtation we can not win do any of us know how we would react?

All he had to do was delete the EMH.

Not fight the crew.

Just take the "cure" out of play.

Meanwhile Chakotay and Janeway were a week away from a bug bite that would take them out of play for at least 6 months.

Vulcan logic doomed Tuvix, when gerbil like hopeless optimism would have saved the "mans".

I blame Kes (again).

Compared to Kes, Neelix is not hopelessly optimistic, in fact Neelix's role in their relationship would have been to ground his girlfriends endless optimism and positivity.

Kes downsized Neelix into a moderate optimist.

Moderate optimist plus conservative optimist equals less conservative optimist.

Tuvix was not optimistic enough to see a way out.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But lets look at this... He had a good cry in the garden, forgave Judas before the Kiss, actually I saw something on the History channel about the Book of Judas, a missing chapter to the bible, that elaborates how Judas was in on the fix and under orders from Jesus to betray Jesus to ensure that the crucifixion took place when and how it was supposed to, buds, and then Jesus told Peter that he would deny Jesus three times.

That's Gnosticism if I remember correctly, Gnosticism alo hold the belief that Jesus was never human, just "seemed human" or something like that.

The idea a lot of mainstream Christianity has is that Jesus needed serve as a sacrifice so that humans even had a chance for redemption.

At least in early Christanity it was also not universally accepted that Jesu was God and the Gospels could be read both ways.

I alway liked the human interpretation of Christ better, it makes the sacrifice more meaningful.

Another piece of knowledge that Art history teacher gave me was: "Painters of the time knew what childbirth looked like, and were more than capable or painting childbirth if the situation called for it, and the birth of Christ was constantly solicited by patrons, but of course what they asked for and what the level of reality they were willing to have hanging on their walls were entirely different species. What the artistos of 14th century Italy decided upon was a transporter sequence from Star Trek. The baby inofensively and bloodlessly teleported out of Mary, and into a near by manger during a flash of magic light."



I shit you not, she said "Transporter from Star Trek".

But here's the good bit...

If this is how Jesus was born, then Mary was still a virgin after her first kid.

 

[hux]

Or Tuvix realised that it was futile to resist any further, there is little point in continuing to resist when a certain point had been reached. Janeway was going to do the deed regardless if he accepted it or not. Even if it invovled restraining him, waiting to he had gone to sleep etc... When faced with a situtation we can not win do any of us know how we would react?

But there are two points here

1. Most people would kick and scream and do anything to cling on to life. Personally, I would not be above crying in a pool of my own recently evacuated excrement and begging for life. I'd grab hold of Janeway's leg and blubber incoherently then when she's lulled into a false sense of security, I'd grab something to smash over her head (I'm sneaky like that). Point is, like most people, I would probably put up more of a struggle

2. Tuvix did eventually acquiesce. No matter how many times people suggest she murdered him, he did ultimately agree to it. He sat there (unrestrained) and gave consent . More euthanasia than murder

I've come to the conclusion that his initial plea for life was just the manifestation of Tuvok and Neelix battling to make sense of their emotions and that his eventual acceptance was the manifestation of Tuvok and Neelix battling to make sense of their logic

 

[Guy Gardener]

What if Tuvix had absorbed Janeway into his matrix?

Is being Tuvixway better or worse for him than being reduced back into Tuvok and Neelix?

Juvix?

 

[Jeri]

I think Tuvix was created by an accident that was corrected by medical procedure, like victims would have been treated if they went to a hospital after an accident.

 

[hux]

In a parallel universe, he chose the name Neevok and lived

It's the little things that determine ones future

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think Tuvix was created by an accident that was corrected by medical procedure, like victims would have been treated if they went to a hospital after an accident.

What about an Addict disinterested in rehab?

 

[Jeri]

What about it?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Is that a decent paradigm for the Tuvix scenario.

An addict will insist that drugs/booze makes them better and they have no interest in giving it up, no matter who is offering help. They're then often dragged into rehab kicking and screaming, only to walk out a month later quite grateful they'd been dragged in.

 

[Jeri]

Tuvix was an injury from an accident received by Tuvok and Neelix, who had prior rights and were unable to advocate for themselves. Janeway became their advocate, as would be appointed for the unconscious, a child, etc. It was a simple legal case.

 

[MacLeod]

Advocate:

a person who speaks or writes in support or defense of a person, cause, etc. (usually followed by of): an advocate of peace. a person who pleads for or in behalf of another; intercessor. a person who pleads the cause of another in a court of law.

Janeway shouldn't have been able to serve as advocate and Judge in the matter. If she wanted to be their advocate she should have handed over the decsion to others i.e. Chakotay or a group of senior officers. The whole process was flawed legally

 

[Guy Gardener]

It was a simple legal case.

One week earlier Janeway broke the Prime Directive in the Thaw.

The Natural development of the Khol was extinction.

They were morons who deserved what they got, and any attempt to save them, which is what Janeway did, would lead to these monkeys taking their AI technology to other planets, or taking apart the planets defences (the clown) could lead to other looters taking Khol AI technology to other planets.

The Clown, was every bit the threat the Borg was, if it was allowed free reign of the galaxy as it created it's own massive collective.

The Clown was the gestalt of a few peoples psyches, just like Tuvix. Murdering the clown and murdering Tuvix are identical crimes, a crime which no one thought to charge Janeway with, and therefore not a crime?

A week before that Tuvok should have been charged with grave robbing and kidnapping, and there fore lost his commission, and therefore reduced the power Janeway had over him. of course he could have insisted that he's extradited to face Drayan justice more properly than they had had administered ad hoc the first time around, which could have tripled his lifespan.

Actually, committing any crime, should have meant a trial, and delayed his execution.

You know, except that Janeway plays out trials on Voyager in her minds eye.

Tuvok was a Maquis (Sure immunity for his crimes was probably guaranteed, but it didn't seem like he'd been given his immunity, or any of the Maquis had been formerly charged or processed or put on a binding road to rehabilitation/reinstatement as free citizens.).

Therefore a convict.

Therefore protected.

Any attempt to kill him is as good as a jail break,and therefore Janeway needs to be charged as an accessory to illegal abscondment, and that goes double for Tuvix.

Chakotay is in Command for 2 seconds, and pardons the Maquis.

 

[mahler]

Tuvix was great. Janeway is a piece of crap for killing him. Screw Janeway and screw this piece of crap episode.