Is TUC a better movie if it's Saavik who betrays the crew?

[Therin of Andor]

Short answer is: yes, it would have been a better story if Saavik had been the one to betray the crew.

Agreed. I would have hated to see Saavik turn traitor, and I'd never have suspected her - which is why it would have been an amazing move for ST VI's story. I'm never very good at whodunnits.

I tried not to spoilerize myself with ST VI, having rummaged out every rumour on STs II-V, which was fun at the time but ruined many surprises. I bought the great "Cinefantastique" issue which focused on ST VI just before it premiered here and told myself, "Don't read the whole article yet. Save it till after the premiere. Just read the photo captions." And, of course, under the Valeris pic was a caption describing her as the traitor. Aaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!!! I'd have been safer reading the article and ignoring the captions.

So, I went into the film unsurprised, but I think I'd have guessed early on. They did drop lots of clues - but, had it been Saavik, the clues would have simply whizzed by me, I'm sure.

I think had Kirstie Alley played Saavik in each film, and had the character's dual heritage not been ignored/de-emphasised, ST VI would have been a more powerful film.

 

[Nebusj]

But with Valeris, there was, at least, a sense that Spock was passing the torch to her, TUC being the last movie with the original crew upon inception. That makes the betrayal a little unexpected.

It did, yes; the scenes between Spock and Valeris about the progression of things was helpful in obscuring her role which was, after all, plain once one remembers Ebert's Law of the Economy of Characters. It would have helped, albeit at the loss of a minute or two of screen time, had there also been established clear successors for Kirk and maybe Scott, so that Valeris would simply have been the most interesting of the people we never saw before.

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

No, I would not have wanted to see Saavik frame David's father for Gorkon's death and kill the two Enterprise crewmen in cold blood, the way Valeris did.

 

[flightmech73]

No, I would not have wanted to see Saavik frame David's father for Gorkon's death and kill the two Enterprise crewmen in cold blood, the way Valeris did.

I didn't think of that. Would she have framed some one she respected so highly? I can see her killing the other two if it was logical. Know I'm not sure what to think.

 

[TheGodBen]

Having watched the film two night ago I must say that she isn't as obvious as the traitor as I remembered. She wasn't just brought in on a whim, her character was there to replace Sulu on the Enterprise. She was also clearly on the bridge when the assassins boarded the Klingon ship. I probably would have figured it out by the time the twist was revealed, but it wouldn't have been too obvious for a newcomer.

 

[22 Stars]

Yes. Particularly if they had Kirstie or Robin Curtis, so the casting would just have been random and a one-off. And I don't agree with Argus. I think it would have shown us how deeply that loss affected her, to still hate the Klingons years later.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yes. Particularly if they had Kirstie or Robin Curtis, so the casting would just have been random and a one-off. And I don't agree with Argus. I think it would have shown us how deeply that loss affected her, to still hate the Klingons years later.

What is ironic, of course, is that Valeris, Chang, Nanclus and Cartwright had to cooperate with each other in order to prove that it was not a good idea to let Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans and humans cooperate with each other for the longterm future.

 

[CorporalClegg]

The real reason for the change was the Kirstie Alley was not interested in reprising the role of Saavik, and Meyer had no interest in working with Robin Curtis. Thus, either recast the character again, or write it as a new character. For what it's worth, the script Kim Cattrell was given still had Saavik; Eris, later Valeris, hadn't yet been created.

Anyone know why Meyer disliked Robin Curtis so much? I wish he could have worked with her as having Saavik be the traitor instead would have made an already good movie into a great one IMO.

Because he's a pretentious prig and a hack?

 

[trekkerguy]

No, it would have kept Kim Cattrall out of my Star Trek.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Anyone know why Meyer disliked Robin Curtis so much? I wish he could have worked with her as having Saavik be the traitor instead would have made an already good movie into a great one IMO.

It's nothing to do with "so much", she simply wasn't the actress he imagined in the part, and the character she played in ST III and IV, as directed by Nimoy, took Saavik in a different direction to what Meyer envisaged. According to Curtis, her agent was never even approached re availability.

Among the fans, a lot of people didn't care for her performance either. But as we know from many interviews, she was playing the role exactly how her director insisted.

Meyer was envisaging Kim Cattrall in the part of Saavik since before Kirstie Alley was even cast for ST II, so I can't see him ever saying, okay let's find out if Curtis is still on the acting circuit.

 

[QuasarVM]

There's not much that can improve TUC...

It's one of my faves...oh, and Nick Meyer is a GAWD!

 

[Aragorn]

I get tired of all this emphasis on battling Rodenberry about CONFLICT. Rodenberry wanted no character conflict between his advanced humans, and The Suits (Berman & Co in particular) thought that conflict was the end-all, be-all to good story telling.

Neither were right.

When Star Trek was at it's best was when both sides had to compromise and meet somewhere in the middle. Seasons 3-6 of TNG prove that. They had to fight just to gain (or keep) an inch, and the product prospered as a result.

^ Uhhh... that's called conflict.

 

[CorporalClegg]

There's not much that can improve TUC...

It's one of my faves...oh, and Nick Meyer is a GAWD!

A plot not full of holes would've been a nice start.

 

[Semah]

No, I would not have wanted to see Saavik frame David's father for Gorkon's death and kill the two Enterprise crewmen in cold blood, the way Valeris did.

I always read it as Saavik/Valeris did not realize that Kirk and McCoy would get arrested. She certainly seemed rather willing to assist in the uncovering of the assassins and gave the crew the sabotage idea to stay in the area, so I don't think she wanted Kirk dead.

 

[GabeHimself]

Is TUC a better movie if it's Saavik who betrays the crew?

Kirstie Yes. Curtis No.

 

[GabeHimself]

There's not much that can improve TUC...

It's one of my faves...oh, and Nick Meyer is a GAWD!

A plot not full of holes would've been a nice start.

The only holes I saw in VI were in Kronos One's backside, the Enterprise's saucer section and the glass overlooking the President's podium on Khitomer. And frankly, I liked those holes.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

No, I would not have wanted to see Saavik frame David's father for Gorkon's death and kill the two Enterprise crewmen in cold blood, the way Valeris did.

I always read it as Saavik/Valeris did not realize that Kirk and McCoy would get arrested. She certainly seemed rather willing to assist in the uncovering of the assassins and gave the crew the sabotage idea to stay in the area, so I don't think she wanted Kirk dead.

Right, what she didn't anticipate was Kirk surrendering and beaming over to the Klingons. If it had gone her way, the Cruiser and the E would have blown the shit out of each other so all the peace talks were down the toilet for good.

 

[Praetor]

No, I would not have wanted to see Saavik frame David's father for Gorkon's death and kill the two Enterprise crewmen in cold blood, the way Valeris did.

I always read it as Saavik/Valeris did not realize that Kirk and McCoy would get arrested. She certainly seemed rather willing to assist in the uncovering of the assassins and gave the crew the sabotage idea to stay in the area, so I don't think she wanted Kirk dead.

More to the point, I don't think she anticipated them surrendering themselves. It was relatively out of character for Kirk. Certainly Valeris would have a certain degree of reverence for Kirk, as she does Spock.

 

[Semah]

No, I would not have wanted to see Saavik frame David's father for Gorkon's death and kill the two Enterprise crewmen in cold blood, the way Valeris did.

I always read it as Saavik/Valeris did not realize that Kirk and McCoy would get arrested. She certainly seemed rather willing to assist in the uncovering of the assassins and gave the crew the sabotage idea to stay in the area, so I don't think she wanted Kirk dead.

More to the point, I don't think she anticipated them surrendering themselves. It was relatively out of character for Kirk. Certainly Valeris would have a certain degree of reverence for Kirk, as she does Spock.

And that works with her being originally conceived as Saavik. Saavik's been there twice when Kirk's been in far more dire straits than that situation and has had the point that Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win sceneriou hammered home. I imagine the original plan was for Gorkon's ship to give a token effort and be disabled or destroyed, while Chang escaped to the Bird of Prey, thus assuring both sides would immediately enter a full scale shooting war.

 

[Praetor]

I always read it as Saavik/Valeris did not realize that Kirk and McCoy would get arrested. She certainly seemed rather willing to assist in the uncovering of the assassins and gave the crew the sabotage idea to stay in the area, so I don't think she wanted Kirk dead.

More to the point, I don't think she anticipated them surrendering themselves. It was relatively out of character for Kirk. Certainly Valeris would have a certain degree of reverence for Kirk, as she does Spock.

And that works with her being originally conceived as Saavik. Saavik's been there twice when Kirk's been in far more dire straits than that situation and has had the point that Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win sceneriou hammered home. I imagine the original plan was for Gorkon's ship to give a token effort and be disabled or destroyed, while Chang escaped to the Bird of Prey, thus assuring both sides would immediately enter a full scale shooting war.

I agree. In fact, I think Valeris and her co-conspirators may have counted on Kirk fighting, and his surrender threw a big wrench in the plan that ultimately led to its discovery. Only Nixon can go to China indeed.