Is TUC a better movie if it's Saavik who betrays the crew?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by steveman, Dec 19, 2008.

  1. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think it would have had a more profound emtional effect on the characters and made for a better overall story but what would be her motivation? Betraying Spock for the sake of creating war between the Federation and Klingon Empire by entering into a conspiracy seems very much out of Saavik's character. Being afraid of change was theme of that conspiracy and Saavik never seemed to show any indication of that...Valeris was young and if you've read the novelization then you would be aware of her backstory which is touched on explaining her sympthaies towards the conspirators in the film. It would be nice to see Kristie reprise the role that started her career...and I think Meyer states his perference in the audio commentary.
     
  2. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    I simple Google will keep you occupied for hours. I spent a good portion of time raking TWOK over the coals last week. I don't care to repeat the process.
     
  3. Yassim

    Yassim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's *why* it works. Her motivation is the same as Kirk's - David's death. So it's more meaningful when Kirk rejects her conclusions, when they're both angry for the same reason.

    In the movie, Who Threw Momma From The Train, Billy Crystal's character tries to explain to Danny DeVito's character that, when there are only two characters in a story, and one of them is murdered, it's obvious that the other character did it (it's a corollary to the Red Shirt Theory - when Spock, Kirk, McCoy and Ensign Nobody beam down, guess what happens?)

    So in that respect, STVI is a murder mystery with only one suspect. With Saavik in the role, it's a lot less obvious who's going to turn up in sickbay.
     
  4. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I disagree. For one, if Saavik had been the conspirator it doesn't mean she supported continual war. Admiral Cartwright and the hardliners thought that the Praxis situation opened up the opportunity for a final or at least decisive war against the Klingons, to break them once and for all. The end of TUC left the Klingons as tenuous allies, but still very strong, and we see even in the TNG and DS9 time frames that the Klingons were not completely committed allies with the Federation nearly a century after TUC, and in DS9 they eventually went to war again with the Federation.

    If it had been Saavik at least the audience would've had something to latch onto in an emotional and visceral way to understand Saavik's actions. We don't know why Valeris did what she did, outside of her assertion that the Klingons were too dangerous and couldn't be trusted. So we still got what could be a considered illogical and dangerous position from Valeris, though without an explanation for why she arrived at that point in the film. Personally I don't think it was illogical. It was dangerous, but the peace deal Spock was proposing also was dangerous too.

    Valeris was looking at the nearly a century of Klingon aggression and it made more sense not to trust them than to trust them. How was the Federation to know or truly trust Gorkon's intentions in light of the decades of history that told them otherwise. I don't think the conspirators went about it the right way but I don't think their suspicions were wrong on their face. Unfortunately the side effect of all that suspicion did become unreasoning bias and hatred against the Klingons and I don't agree with that. But the initial wariness I do agree with. And even with the bias that was exhibited by various Starfleet officers, it was regrettable, but also made sense due to the long history of hostility between the Federation and the Klingons. If the Starfleet officers didn't harbor ill thoughts about the Klingons then that would've been unbelievable to me.

    Valeris wasn't an average Starfleet officer. She was one of the best in the Academy and Spock's heir apparent. The two crewman that carried out the assassination against Gorkon were Average Joes who were easily dispatched by Valeris. Valeris was higher up than they were, but not as high as Admiral Cartwright.

    I would be fine either way with Valeris or Saavik in TUC. I liked Valeris. I liked Saavik. I do feel though that including Saavik would've been more dramatically powerful and emotionally affecting, seeing her argue with Kirk over David's memory and perhaps even the need to avenge him, or Spock struggling to reconcile his pride and disappointment with her, and the mind meld scene would've been even more gripping and terrible because we 'knew' Saavik in a way we didn't know Valeris.

    I also think it sucks that they didn't use Saavik because they never revisited the character. I read that she was supposed to be on TNG once, but that didn't happen. It would've been great to see her on TNG or DS9 or something.
     
  5. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I never liked the idea of Saavik being the traitor, but that's probably an attachment to the character from my youth, as Star Trek II was one of the first films I saw in a theater. I half assume that Saavik was Spock's wife, since it is mentioned that Picard attended the wedding of Sarek's son, and that he'd only met Spock once prior to the mission to Romulus. Though authors recently seem to be giving Sarek more and more children. Be they blood relations or adopted. Also we don't know if Sarek had children with his second (known) human wife. It is assumed not, but than what was the logical reason for marrying her? He needed a caretaker that could handle emotions? He was use to human women and a bit lonely after Amanda's death?

    However, if Saavik's half-Romulan heritage had been used, it would make the involvement of the Romulans and Spock's efforts on Romulus make more sense. As it is, the Romulan involvement in the plot makes basically no sense....what did they do for the plot (both the assassination plots and he story plot)?


    Also this is a old thread, but I've not seen it before (so its new to me).
     
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  6. Vger23

    Vger23 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The movie would have been far more powerful if Saavik had been the traitor. No question about it.
     
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  7. Vger23

    Vger23 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Star Trek VI, while enjoyable to some degree, is so riddled with lazy /rushed writing, utter nonsense, and plot contrivances that it can never break into my favorites.

    This film really suffered from being rushed, and is very sloppy as a result. Nobody's level of "But I LOVE IT!!!" can make up for how unbelievably porous the film is.
     
  8. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!
     
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  9. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Good points, especially about the Romulan involvement in the plot. I get that the Romulans would want to take advantage of a weakened Klingon Empire, but it was always odd to me that Nanclus was involved in that high-level meeting with Sarek and the Federation President. But what exactly did they add to the plot at all? I wish that had been better thought out and explained.

    I do wish they had made Saavik's Romulan heritage canon, even if she hadn't been in Star Trek IV. It was just a cool aspect of the character I enjoyed from the novelverse.
     
  10. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Commodore Commodore

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    Agree.
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Commodore Commodore

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    A more powerful movie? Certainly. Better? In my opinion, certainly not.

    Saavik was introduced to give the fans a signpost that all things Star Trek, Starfleet, the Federation, etc., would continue, even if the string of movies petered out. Making her the traitor does two things; first, it does establish a stronger and more impactful storyline of betrayal at the heart of our heroes supposedly solid core of stalwarts.

    But it also destroys the hope for the future that Saavik had represented since her introduction. Indeed, it lays the groundwork for the worst of every bad thing we've ever hated about the 24th century stories, presenting us with the idea that never again will our heroes be so true and solid of character that they are utterly trustworthy. Saavik being the traitor makes it too easy to believe that every promise of forthright upstanding behavior from anyone from TNG forward is a lie. Do you hate the idea of Section 31, and wish it had never been introduced? Saavik being the traitor makes it inevitable. Do you hate the idea that Admiral Dougherty may have been operating either without Federation Council sanction, or had lied to them to get it? Saavik being the traitor makes it commonplace.

    Admiral Cartright was enough of an enigma that his being a traitor could be explained as "some people just go bad." Saavik being a traitor too easily gives the impression that everyone will, eventually, which we know just isn't true. And that damages Star Trek, at least to me.
     
  12. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    The mind meld scene would have been all the more distasteful. :barf2:

    Kor
     
  13. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Picture 1: Half Romulan: Mildly interested, keeping her emotions cool and remaining sexy
    Picture 2: Full Vulcan: Fully surprised and given a moderate emotional response
     
  14. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    Guys, please look at the date of the last comment before you post to a thread. This is a zombie thread, but since you've added to it, I'm leaving it open. Thank you for your attention.
     
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