Is T'Pol still around ?

[Christopher]

Wasn't T'Pau alive in the post-TNG era in a New Frontier novel? And she was ancient in Kirk's time. If she can cling to life that long, T'Pol can too.

Per what Enterprise established, T'Pau was only 145 in "Amok Time," just 43 years older than Sarek. At the time of her NF appearance, she would've been 254, which is about the life expectancy given for Vulcans in The Making of Star Trek. T'Pol, remember, was born 34 years earlier. At the start of TNG, she would've been 276; in the current novel timeframe, she'd be 298. There's no precedent that I know of for Vulcans living that long.

 

[Ronald Held]

I can see T'Pol alive until perhaps the early TOS movies.but not TNG.

 

[borgboy]

I think she could possibly be around until the Stargazer era. There's room for T'Pol in some Lost Era novels if there's a story that needs her.

 

[Markonian]

At the start of TNG, she would've been 276; in the current novel timeframe, she'd be 298. There's no precedent that I know of for Vulcans living that long.

Not unless we accept a 308yo Solkar from The First 150 Years.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm pretty sure there was a 300 year old Vulcan in one of Jean Lorrah's TOS novels.

 

[Idran]

At the start of TNG, she would've been 276; in the current novel timeframe, she'd be 298. There's no precedent that I know of for Vulcans living that long.

Not unless we accept a 308yo Solkar from The First 150 Years.

No canon/Litverse precedent, then.

 

[Christopher]

Well, if we take The Making of Star Trek's 250-year life expectancy as an average, then 308 would be 123% of the average. The current worldwide life-expectancy average for humans is 71 years, so 123% of that would be 87. So that would suggest it's easily possible. Although "Broken Bow" put it at 200, so 308 would be 154% of average, corresponding to 109 years -- not impossible, but rare.

On the other hand, if we assume that Vulcans have achieved a 200 to 250-year life expectancy through advanced geriatric medicine and logically clean living, then that would be closer to the theoretical maximum than an average. In which case there wouldn't be as much leeway above that figure.

 

[Ronald Held]

I do not see that we are making any progress. Does anyone have a story idea that requires T'Pol to be critical to a 23d to 24th century story? In the JJVerse Spock is around 160. Should his life be extend as long as medically possible to help restore Vulcan civilization?

 

[Idran]

Does anyone have a story idea that requires T'Pol to be critical to a 23d to 24th century story?

To be fair, if anyone did, they obviously couldn't say it in this thread.

 

[Deks]

Well, if we take The Making of Star Trek's 250-year life expectancy as an average, then 308 would be 123% of the average. The current worldwide life-expectancy average for humans is 71 years, so 123% of that would be 87. So that would suggest it's easily possible. Although "Broken Bow" put it at 200, so 308 would be 154% of average, corresponding to 109 years -- not impossible, but rare.

On the other hand, if we assume that Vulcans have achieved a 200 to 250-year life expectancy through advanced geriatric medicine and logically clean living, then that would be closer to the theoretical maximum than an average. In which case there wouldn't be as much leeway above that figure.

Average life expectancy and maximum life expectancy however are not the same thing.

And 'average' will vary from country to country, even from individual to individual.
Hence why it is difficult to take the 'average life expectancy' as a serious estimate.

Now, if an average life expectancy of a Vulcan falls into the category of 250, there's no reason to think that their 'maximum' might fall into their third century.

T'Pol just might be one of those individuals who attains it (but, the writers can always make something up in terms of Federation medical breakthroughs that could allow it).

 

[Christopher]

Average life expectancy and maximum life expectancy however are not the same thing.

Umm... That was exactly the point I was making, so there's no "however" about it.

 

[Ronald Held]

Does anyone have a story idea that requires T'Pol to be critical to a 23d to 24th century story?

To be fair, if anyone did, they obviously couldn't say it in this thread.

Yes that would be true.

 

[Idran]

And 'average' will vary from country to country, even from individual to individual.

Wait, what do you mean by the average life expectancy of an individual? "Average" is only a meaningful term when applied to a group.

 

[Christopher]

Wait, what do you mean by the average life expectancy of an individual? "Average" is only a meaningful term when applied to a group.

Maybe across parallel timelines? Or reincarnations?

 

[Idran]

Wait, what do you mean by the average life expectancy of an individual? "Average" is only a meaningful term when applied to a group.

Maybe across parallel timelines? Or reincarnations?

Or clones, I suppose.

 

[JD]

I don't really see why we'd need T'Pol in the 24th Century. Sure it might be kind of fun in gimmicky fanwank kind of way, but it just seems really unnecessary. It already kind of pushes it to have McCoy, Uhura, and Checkov living into the post-Dominion War era, but bringing an Ent. character into it would be ridiculous.
As for extended life span of humans in Trek, maybe people just don't feel that it's necessary to push the average life span past it's natural point. If people are happy and able to accomplish everything they want in about 150ish years, maybe they just don't see a point in living past that.

 

[Relayer1]

I don't really see why we'd need T'Pol in the 24th Century. Sure it might be kind of fun in gimmicky fanwank kind of way, but it just seems really unnecessary. It already kind of pushes it to have McCoy, Uhura, and Checkov living into the post-Dominion War era, but bringing an Ent. character into it would be ridiculous.

One of the joys of Treklit is finding out what happened to characters after the shows finished. Whilst I agree that taking Uhura, Checkov and (I think ?) Saavik into the post TNG era in the Vulcan trilogy was pushing it and unnecessary, it's still good that they have been documented, unlike Sulu.

T'pol could be interesting in TOS stories without straining credibility, and would be a good 'in' for mentioning what happened to the rest of the Enterprise crew and their descendants.

 

[Deks]

As for extended life span of humans in Trek, maybe people just don't feel that it's necessary to push the average life span past it's natural point. If people are happy and able to accomplish everything they want in about 150ish years, maybe they just don't see a point in living past that.

This seems to be the ONLY credible explanation... however, we don't know whether 150 years is actually the limit to maximum Human lifespan.
As standards of living improve, so does life expectancy.
In Trek, it seems as if it just 'stopped' at about 150 - which realistically, doesn't make any sense.

And even if you argue that a lot of Humans may not see the need in living past 150 years of age, SOME Humans might want to.
I mean, exploring the Milky Way galaxy alone in DETAIL would take much longer than that.

I find it hard to imagine that explorers like Picard (who even complained at times about 'not having enough time') would pass up the option for it, considering we are talking about physical health, youthfulness and stamina to boot.

What we observed on-screen from various characters though, some would jump at the chance at living indefinitely.

Think about it... society changes constantly. This kind of change would be even faster in a futuristic setting.
By the time you lived a portion of your life exploring one facet of society, another facet would change so radically to the point where it would warrant you learn it all over again.

'Boredom' is hardly a viable excuse here.
There are plenty of things to do on a single planet, let alone this galaxy and universe at large... heck, even the multiverse.
The prospect for continuous learning and advancement is quite large, because tehcnical and scientific progress wouldn't just stop or go stagnant (the notion that short lives prompt progress isn't really a viable one - it may be a contributing factor, but driven people exist regardless).

As for using T'Pol in the 24th century... there might be a couple of reasons she would want to stick around.
Not every Vulcan is alike, and some aspects from Enterprise were shown that could happen in the 24th century that she might like to see through.

 

[Christopher]

As standards of living improve, so does life expectancy.

But not the kind of life expectancy you're implying. Improving standards of living increases average life expectancy closer toward the maximum that the organism is physically capable of, because it eliminates a lot of the things that tend to kill people earlier. But that doesn't mean the theoretical maximum is being increased by a comparable amount. It's important not to take averages too literally. There were cultures in the past where the average life expectancy was in the 30s or 40s, but that doesn't mean nobody ever lived to see 60. It means that a high percentage of babies died in infancy, but that those who survived their childhood often lived to a ripe old age. Reducing the rate of early death increases the average life expectancy even if the maximum lifespan remains unchanged.

In Trek, it seems as if it just 'stopped' at about 150 - which realistically, doesn't make any sense.

And this is where you're wrong. Realistically, it makes perfect sense, for the reasons I explained above. Simply removing factors that kill people early will not automatically raise the maximum lifespan that the organism is capable of. Let's say you have a class of 30 people that has 1 A student, 5 B students, 9 C students, and 15 D students. It's got a really low grade point average, a C-minus. Say you get a really good teacher who inspires the students and helps them improve so that you end up with 6 A students, 16 B students, 5 C students, and 3 D students. That pushes up the average to nearly a B. But the maximum hasn't budged at all -- it's still A. You're not increasing the maximum, just increasing the number of people in the sample who get close to it.

Maybe there is a way to increase maximum life expectancy, say, through genetic engineering or nanotech. But that's an entirely different problem to tackle than the one you're talking about. Improving standards of living doesn't extend the maximum, it just allows more people to approach it.

 

[Relayer1]

I cant remember where (it could have been in Crossover) but Bones details some of the work he's had done - organ replacement etc. Theoretically, if you keep sorting out the things that may kill you, you could just keep on living.

Something similar happens in Kim Stanley Robinsons Mars trilogy, but they find new problems with diseases occurring that have never been known before, specific to the super-old.

There will probably always be some form of body failure to deal with.