Is this Jennifer Lien?
- Thread starter Trekky0623
- Start date
I 'think' (don't quote me) that he was going to be killed during Scorpion Part 2 by the tendrils of doom.
Stardream> I believed it too. And wanted the producers to have the balls to do it. instead we got the new trend 'nanoprobes cure everything' loophole and only when it's compelling story telling so if your marked for death it doesn't mean Seven will be written to donate some nano blood to rise your corpse.
Well, yes, that's why I say inspiration is over-rated as something professional writers need. Part of being a professional writer is being competent without inspiration.
However, some characters, some settings, some scenarios are easier to write than others. Charlie Brown, Spock, Homer Simpson, Sherlock Holmes, Batman, the Cowardly Lion --- these are characters who beg for more to be told about them. Take any of them and put them anywhere and an interesting story is almost inevitable.
And some characters are just dead balls. There is surely a great Travis Mayweather story to be told, but it's going to be a lot of work getting there. A good writer, or an ordinary writer having a good day, may find that story. But it's going to be a lot easier to find interesting stories about T'Pol.
And when deadline looms, the promising-looking story about the character that's full of potential is going to win out over the challenging-but-imaginable story about the character that looks inert. There's too much other stuff to do; why take the path that looks harder and has lower promise?
^ Cool, cool. I can't disagree with this post at all.
Now if I were a writer charged with writing Kes, whom I thought were a blasé character (I do not), here is what I would do:
Best Case Scenario: TNG lasted 7 years, maybe Voyager could too.
Kes' lifespan = 9 years; she is 2 in the pilot.
That is like dog years except she ages roughly 10 years for every year the crew ages - for the sake of argument.
Year One:
When we first see her, she should be about 20 years old. Having a lover Neelix, but also feeling independent for the first time in her life. Meeting new people, enjoying all the male attention on board, and probably unfaithful to Neelix at some point. He is hurt and disappointed - but not surprised by this AT ALL. He loves her and wishes her the best, and remains to offer a shoulder to cry on and occasional dalliance.
Year Two:
Kes is 30 years old. She starts thinking about her impending elogium and becoming more selective with her mating partners. Neelix? Still on the table, actually. She values his loyalty highly, as well as his resilience. By now, Kes is a competent physician's assistant and taking care of most non-surgical medical procedures in sickbay. Non Sequitur is her flashback to Ocampa, where she becomes wanted for crimes blamed on her extrasensory aberrations.
Year Three:
Kes is about 40, married and has born a child. She is a dedicated physician performing surgical procedures and conferring with the EMH professionally. (Remember, he is still restricted to sickbay until Season 3, episode 8, Future's End. By now she is also a peer to Janeway and providing counsel as well as ethical confrontations. She experiences similar events in Warlord and Before and After.
Year Four:
Kes is roughly 50 years old. She may or may not have divorced. She has been given rank and officer duties. Her child, one, has become a babysitter to two-year-old Naomi Wildman. She continues to share a deep friendship with Neelix. We sometimes see her in the Captain's seat, as she shares bridge duty with Chakotay and Tuvok. We see her leading away missions. She has markedly different roles in Year of Hell, Waking Moments, Mortal Coil, Prey, Killing Game, Hope and Fear.
Year Five:
Kes is approximately 60 years old. Her child is in officer training. She is closer to Tuvok than anyone else on the ship, even the captain. She advises Janeway how to advise Seven of Nine. She outthinks the Thinktank. She outmaneuvers the Equinox.
Year Six:
Kes is about 70. As Harry has created an EMH based on her likeness, she now leads a coalition of ships bound for the Alpha Quadrant - some for trade, some for scientific research, some for starting a new life far from enemies. Kes is a Fleet Admiral equivalent, and Janeway takes orders from her for the sake of fleet cooperation - with veto power, of course. Kes' child is a Lieutenant.
Year Seven:
Kes is roughly 80 years old. She has promoted Janeway to fleet admiral, Chakotay to captain of Voy, Tuvok to 2nd officer, and Kes' child to Tactical Officer. Kes' child now provides a foil and friend for Seven of Nine, while Kes instructs the fleet officer academy and tends to her hydroponics garden. Oh, and her child has borne a child. Kes meditates extensively and has only now begun to experience enlightenment phenomena, which she teaches her more dedicated martial arts students.
All the while, the crew is dealing with Kes passing them by through all of these milestones.
Boom. Twenty minutes. Seven different roles from one "blasé" character.
Objection: overruled.
Now if I were a writer charged with writing Kes, whom I thought were a blasé character (I do not), here is what I would do:
Best Case Scenario: TNG lasted 7 years, maybe Voyager could too.
Kes' lifespan = 9 years; she is 2 in the pilot.
That is like dog years except she ages roughly 10 years for every year the crew ages - for the sake of argument.
Year One:
When we first see her, she should be about 20 years old. Having a lover Neelix, but also feeling independent for the first time in her life. Meeting new people, enjoying all the male attention on board, and probably unfaithful to Neelix at some point. He is hurt and disappointed - but not surprised by this AT ALL. He loves her and wishes her the best, and remains to offer a shoulder to cry on and occasional dalliance.
Year Two:
Kes is 30 years old. She starts thinking about her impending elogium and becoming more selective with her mating partners. Neelix? Still on the table, actually. She values his loyalty highly, as well as his resilience. By now, Kes is a competent physician's assistant and taking care of most non-surgical medical procedures in sickbay. Non Sequitur is her flashback to Ocampa, where she becomes wanted for crimes blamed on her extrasensory aberrations.
Year Three:
Kes is about 40, married and has born a child. She is a dedicated physician performing surgical procedures and conferring with the EMH professionally. (Remember, he is still restricted to sickbay until Season 3, episode 8, Future's End. By now she is also a peer to Janeway and providing counsel as well as ethical confrontations. She experiences similar events in Warlord and Before and After.
Year Four:
Kes is roughly 50 years old. She may or may not have divorced. She has been given rank and officer duties. Her child, one, has become a babysitter to two-year-old Naomi Wildman. She continues to share a deep friendship with Neelix. We sometimes see her in the Captain's seat, as she shares bridge duty with Chakotay and Tuvok. We see her leading away missions. She has markedly different roles in Year of Hell, Waking Moments, Mortal Coil, Prey, Killing Game, Hope and Fear.
Year Five:
Kes is approximately 60 years old. Her child is in officer training. She is closer to Tuvok than anyone else on the ship, even the captain. She advises Janeway how to advise Seven of Nine. She outthinks the Thinktank. She outmaneuvers the Equinox.
Year Six:
Kes is about 70. As Harry has created an EMH based on her likeness, she now leads a coalition of ships bound for the Alpha Quadrant - some for trade, some for scientific research, some for starting a new life far from enemies. Kes is a Fleet Admiral equivalent, and Janeway takes orders from her for the sake of fleet cooperation - with veto power, of course. Kes' child is a Lieutenant.
Year Seven:
Kes is roughly 80 years old. She has promoted Janeway to fleet admiral, Chakotay to captain of Voy, Tuvok to 2nd officer, and Kes' child to Tactical Officer. Kes' child now provides a foil and friend for Seven of Nine, while Kes instructs the fleet officer academy and tends to her hydroponics garden. Oh, and her child has borne a child. Kes meditates extensively and has only now begun to experience enlightenment phenomena, which she teaches her more dedicated martial arts students.
All the while, the crew is dealing with Kes passing them by through all of these milestones.
Boom. Twenty minutes. Seven different roles from one "blasé" character.
Objection: overruled.
Last edited:
That would have been awesome!
However, one thing bugs me. Kes living a lifespan ten times shorter than humans, and yet having her in roles equivalent to humans of that age, would require Kes to learn 10 times as fast and gather life experiences 10 times as fast as well.
I could picture her becoming an accomplished physician amazingly fast just by capability, but how could she gather 70 years' worth of lifetime experience (and becoming a counselor/superior even to Janeway and Tuvok) when she has lived only for 7 years ?
Yes. The Doctor said that she had an eidetic memory right at the beginning.
She'll be fine.
FFS, kes' three year old daughter was a Doctor.
The snails pace at which humans learn, and the tiny fraction of their lives that they seem to recall, would to an Ocampan seem like they're living in a old age home for persons with advanced dementia.
She'll be fine.
FFS, kes' three year old daughter was a Doctor.
The snails pace at which humans learn, and the tiny fraction of their lives that they seem to recall, would to an Ocampan seem like they're living in a old age home for persons with advanced dementia.
I know, that's why I can buy her becoming an accomplished doctor within a year (or two). Even though that is a stretch, too.
I just don't see how she would gather these other capabilities, like wisdom, general life experience, and insight in other people old people are often reputed to posses at 10 times the rate of ordinary humans. Perhaps something to do with her special telepathic mind powers ?
I do believe the Starfleet Charter would have accommodated an Ocampan's rapid development. Promotion by age and experience is not about hitting a number but a certain level of maturity - as well as military wisdom based on field experience.
Well an Ocampan would garner experience at a much faster rate than a human, so would learn a great deal more from each encounter than a typical human. Given the Federation's liberal attitude toward racial differences, I really believe they would have valued Ocampans intrinsic capabilities and not been stuck enforcing the letter of the law, but its spirit - putting your best people in charge.
For example, given Wesley Crusher bridge duty - he handled it better than a lot of experienced officers. And of course had to prove his mettle, which Kes would continually be doing at each stage.
By the way, at her oldest, she would still look up to Tuvok, who would still have 20 years on her. His venerable, centenarian experience is another thing we didn't really get to see.
Well an Ocampan would garner experience at a much faster rate than a human, so would learn a great deal more from each encounter than a typical human. Given the Federation's liberal attitude toward racial differences, I really believe they would have valued Ocampans intrinsic capabilities and not been stuck enforcing the letter of the law, but its spirit - putting your best people in charge.
For example, given Wesley Crusher bridge duty - he handled it better than a lot of experienced officers. And of course had to prove his mettle, which Kes would continually be doing at each stage.
By the way, at her oldest, she would still look up to Tuvok, who would still have 20 years on her. His venerable, centenarian experience is another thing we didn't really get to see.
How fast does she read... How fast does she talk?
If their rate of communication means that they can talk relatively for hours in a matter of actual minutes, but Voyager's Universal translator slows down her rate of speech and speeds up the Esperanto that the humans are speaking.
Which means Kes must wait what seems to her to be an eternity between words when someone on the ship is talking to her.
If their rate of communication means that they can talk relatively for hours in a matter of actual minutes, but Voyager's Universal translator slows down her rate of speech and speeds up the Esperanto that the humans are speaking.
Which means Kes must wait what seems to her to be an eternity between words when someone on the ship is talking to her.
So perhaps her subjective life experience would speed along at 10 times the rate typical for an average humanoid. Interesting thought.
I don't think we see any evidence for that, though, onscreen, as all dialogues and interactions between her and the crew seem quite natural. (but neither do we see anything that directly contradicts it).
^ Yes, Lynx started a thread for the occasion.
I tend to think of Kes' intelligence as processing information the way humans do, but in building neural network connections at an accelerated rate, and coming to understand much more depth from a given set of stimuli. They also have the telepathy factor, and we could also add a dash of accelerated collective subconscious / higher order Ocampan instinct transmission. It would make sense in saving learning time if such wisdom could become instinctual at an accelerated rate.
The Ocampa civilization isn't a bunch of 10 year olds bonking aliens on the head. It's a mature group. I mean, it's right there in the pilot. Why they kept her a 20-something waif, I'll never know. Even Lien had that sultry, husky voice, as Hux mentioned in an earlier post, that would have carried well through her rapid on-screen aging.
I tend to think of Kes' intelligence as processing information the way humans do, but in building neural network connections at an accelerated rate, and coming to understand much more depth from a given set of stimuli. They also have the telepathy factor, and we could also add a dash of accelerated collective subconscious / higher order Ocampan instinct transmission. It would make sense in saving learning time if such wisdom could become instinctual at an accelerated rate.
The Ocampa civilization isn't a bunch of 10 year olds bonking aliens on the head. It's a mature group. I mean, it's right there in the pilot. Why they kept her a 20-something waif, I'll never know. Even Lien had that sultry, husky voice, as Hux mentioned in an earlier post, that would have carried well through her rapid on-screen aging.
Last edited:
If they had used that nine year life-span thing and having her age for each season, it would have caused some problems.
Either they have had to replace Lien with some older actress or cover Lien's nice face with a lot of make-up goo to make her look older.
It would have been smarter to prolong her life-span instead. The Doctor could have come up with something. Or Q. Or Suspiria. It was possible to prolong the Ocampa lifespan according to the episode "Cold Fire". Tanis was at least 14 years old and looked like he was in his thirties.
Either they have had to replace Lien with some older actress or cover Lien's nice face with a lot of make-up goo to make her look older.
It would have been smarter to prolong her life-span instead. The Doctor could have come up with something. Or Q. Or Suspiria. It was possible to prolong the Ocampa lifespan according to the episode "Cold Fire". Tanis was at least 14 years old and looked like he was in his thirties.
Why not simply give her longevity of appearance, like Vulcans? See, my problem with lengthening Ocampan lifespans is that it dilutes what makes them interesting. We end up with what, a static character (as we did). Why did they conceive of a species that lives for nine years? It's fascinating! Now give her nanoprobes that let her live a human lifespan so she can last through a "Voyager Movie Era". Well who is she now? That same optimistic kid with barely any growth, like Harry or Chakotay.
I agree, don't cover her up with makeup. Simple cosmetic changes and good acting could have sufficed.
I agree, don't cover her up with makeup. Simple cosmetic changes and good acting could have sufficed.
The nine year life-span was a mistake. They should have given her a human life-span or even longer than that from the start.
Or they could have corrected it which I tink they would have done sooner or later. There were some hints for that in episodes like "Cold Fire" and "Before And After".
The most interesting with Kes wasn't the lifespan (which hardly was mentioned) but her personality!
Nice and friendly but also determined, strong willed and curious. Not to mention that she was a great complement and contrast to more typical female action characters like Janeway, Torres and later on Seven.
Or they could have corrected it which I tink they would have done sooner or later. There were some hints for that in episodes like "Cold Fire" and "Before And After".
The most interesting with Kes wasn't the lifespan (which hardly was mentioned) but her personality!
Nice and friendly but also determined, strong willed and curious. Not to mention that she was a great complement and contrast to more typical female action characters like Janeway, Torres and later on Seven.
She certainly brought more to the show than Chekotay, Harry or Neelix.
In fact, they did show that. In "before and after", she doesn't seem to age at all until her morologium sets in (which is, what, 2 months before she would have died ?)
Media outlets use such information, full name and age and address, not for the sake of ridicule, but as a means to further and more specifically identify the individual in question. It's also a bit of CYA, so that everyone with the same first and last name doesn't get up in arms about being accused of some sort of misdeed.
If a media outlet said "Joe Smith was arrested for DUI after an accident that killed 43 innocent tribbles", then every Joe Smith within 20 parsecs would probably be hiring lawyers and talking lawsuit. By saying, "Joe Tiberius Smith III, age 93, of 4747 Mockingtarg Lane was arrested for DUI after an accident that killed 43 innocent tribbles", that's pretty specific.
Not defending the practice, just passing along what I learned from a few years in the TV news biz.
