Is this Jennifer Lien?

[Guy Gardener]

Who were the Executive producers between May 1997 and September 1997?

IMDB says: Rick Berman, Brannon Braga, Kennith Biller and Jeri Taylor.

The executive producers did do most of the writing, and rewrote everything that they didn't write so that they got paid again. Hell, Berman got paid and given a writing credit for just reading scripts.

In 1997 the Network told that fab four to make 26 episodes per season, for 2 million dollars each, and that they would be left alone MAYBE only so long as the ratings were good... The ratings were not good.

That's how it worked.

 

[Lynx]

I firmly believe, because I am an optimist who knows that humankind is at its heart good and true and reaching for the stars aka evolving that in the future crack will give us all the (apparent, I speak not from xperience here) HIT that people love with ZERO bad stuff. No addiction, no teeth rot, no fucked up anything. You smoke it on your down time, that time that the Feds let you do what you like with when you're not working for no money and you're FINE. Because in the future drugs have been perfected and you only get the good things out of them.

Drugs are chemical stuff, mostly addictive and not good for the body and mind.

In the future, let's say the 23th and 24th century, humanity may have evolved so much that it don't need drugs to try to escape from reality.

 

[Lynx]

Once they could't use the money from firing Wang to pay for Jeri, they had to find the Jeri money somewhere else, which is exactly what happened.

But once they're looking around trying to find someone to fire, the writers must have had an input.

I imagine the conversation went something like this:-

Moneyman: Who should we fire?
Writers: The doctor. After all, we love writing him and definitely have an arc that we know and understand and Picardo's performances are sublime.
Moneyman: Really?
Writers: No you dumb fuck-Jaffa. Fire the girl whose character we hate writing because we don't know what the hell to do with her.
Moneyman: Oh yeah, that makes more sense.

I think it was more like this:

Berman, Braha, J.Taylor aka BBT: As you know, we have decided to add a "sexy babe" to the show and therefore we ordered you not to be able to come up with good Harry Kim stories. However, since Garret Wang has been voted one of the 50 most handsome in People's magazine we have to change the plans and get rid of Kes instead. Don't forget that it's a "beezneez" decision and therefore you must obey.

Staff: Yes, you almighty ones!

BBT: So from now on you can write stories for Harry but it's impossible for you to come up with stories about Kes.

Staff member: With all due respect, it's much easier to come up with stories about Kes. I have....

BBT: Silence! When we give an order, you obey! It's impossible for you to come up with stories about Kes! Understand!

Staff: Yes, almighty ones! It has always been impossible to come up with Kes stories!

BBT: And don't forget that it is a "beezneez" decision!

Later the same day:

 

[Nebusj]

Saying a writer can't write a certain character is like saying he can't use adjectives. Um, it's what writing is, it's what writers do. That's like saying a phone repairman can't dial the number three. That's what they do.

Um. No, no, that really isn't so. Writers typically have some kinds of characters they're really good at, and some they're mediocre at, and some they're awful at. This is much the same way that actors can play some characters well and are distractingly hilariously bad at others.

And even when a writer is able to write a particular kind of character that doesn't mean they'll hit a particular character just right. Case in point, the Scotty and Chekov scenes in Generations. (Even if you replace them with Spock and McCoy, well, McCoy comes out about right, but Spock feels off to my ear yet.)

Finally, even if a writer is able to get a particular character right, that doesn't mean she can necessarily work out interesting stories featuring that character. Inspiration is over-rated as something professional writers need, but if the writer can't think of any good stories that are sculpted to the character --- that would have to be shaped differently to have someone else at the center --- then the character isn't going to be used well.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

All the "I have amazing powers, they are getting bigger and bigger.." characters suck.

The only reason Q didn't totally suck was John de Lancie.

Lien is no de Lancie.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Due to their position on the totem, each character's airtime is divvied unevenly, with respect to their celebrity/importance on the show, to the 26 episodes per season. 7 principle characters, and ensemble pieces where everyone gets to share the lime light more like communists.

That's how Star Trek in the 90s works (As an example) 3 ensemble stories one of which are two parters, 5 The Doctor Stories 3 janeway stories, 3 Neelix, 4 Paris stories, 3 Kim Stories, 2 B'Elanna stories, 2 Kes Stories, 1 Chakotay Stories.

Now imagine that after hiring this sexy borgette, that they wanted to give her 7 episodes where she is the primary. Sure she gets the 2 episodes Kes would have had, but where do the other 5 come from? If I learnt anything from Moneyball, it that if you wanted to give her 7 episodes, you had to fire a group of actors who were expecting to get seven episodes.

They might have been moving money around, but they were also moving around a lot of time.

Jeri stole a lot of time from the rest of the cast, that they couldn't take from Jennifer while dislodging her form the production.

Getting rid of Kim who did more than Kes, would have bit into everyone elses participation less.

 

[Catarina]

Getitng rid of kim who did more than Kes, would have bit into everyone elses participation less.

yup

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think that it's a lame excuse from those in charge. If the character "didn't go anywhere", then how could they come up with good stories about that character up to the last possible minutes of season 3?

As much as you love her, the character was ill-conceived. An alien who had a five-, then seven-, then nine-year lifespan (presumably so she could reach old age if the series went seven years), and came from the other side of the galaxy, but looked human with pixie ears. An actress with gorgeous, long, blond hair hidden under a wig that, in the pilot, resembled a mop head. She was in a relationship with Neelix, who called her "beloved" - and yet Kes didn't enter puberty until "Elogium"!

Why did they lose their ability to write for the character exactly between season 3 and 4

The writing was on the wall very early, hence the breakup (offscreen!) with Neelix.

Not to mention that Jeri Taylor could come up with at least one good kes story after Kes was gone (the one in the book "Pathways".

That book was written much earlier, but was delayed many months, because Paramount insisted that all new novels reflect the addition of Seven of Nine to the crew, so Taylor had to rewrite the prologue and epilogue - and Neelix had to magically channel the spirit of the departed Kes to tell her already-written origin story - to get it published.

 

[Triskelion]

Saying a writer can't write a certain character is like saying he can't use adjectives. Um, it's what writing is, it's what writers do. That's like saying a phone repairman can't dial the number three. That's what they do.

Um. No, no, that really isn't so. Writers typically have some kinds of characters they're really good at, and some they're mediocre at, and some they're awful at. This is much the same way that actors can play some characters well and are distractingly hilariously bad at others.

And even when a writer is able to write a particular kind of character that doesn't mean they'll hit a particular character just right. Case in point, the Scotty and Chekov scenes in Generations. (Even if you replace them with Spock and McCoy, well, McCoy comes out about right, but Spock feels off to my ear yet.)

Finally, even if a writer is able to get a particular character right, that doesn't mean she can necessarily work out interesting stories featuring that character. Inspiration is over-rated as something professional writers need, but if the writer can't think of any good stories that are sculpted to the character --- that would have to be shaped differently to have someone else at the center --- then the character isn't going to be used well.

All solid points, Nebusj. When you are talking about writing the best possible stories and making lightning strike in a bottle, I agree with you completely. As a fan, one would wish for the best possible writing from the best possible balance of factors, and hopefully, a serendipitous result and a classic episode to live on in fandom perpetuity.

But that other side of Show Business is Business, and in this regard i respectfully disagree with the premise that the artistry is what directed the act of writing.

If I were a producer, I would tell the writers in my best J. Jonah Jameson voice:

"Write me a story about this character whom you said you could write about when you were hand-selected from literally a hundred thousand writers to write our series which you knew in advance could throw any number of weird spaced-out characters at you. Do you remember us asking you if you could write for these people and you said 'Sure boss, no problem, how hard could it be?'

Nor are you not writing alone in a closet - we're funding you a writing team. Oh, the lot of you still can't write for this waify character well enough to make it 'art', you say? Well can you write it well enough to make it coherent to speakers of the English language?

No? You won't write unless you create artistic serendipity?

Yeah...you're fired.

Miss Foxwhistle, fetch me a writer who can bloody well write any character we bloody well throw at them, and if there are none among those thousands of applications, then get your comic nerd nephew to write me a draft about Kes swapping bodies with a pod person, dammit! By Tuesday! Now stop calling me in the war room!"

<click> Primadonnas! Sorry General, what you were saying about the twenty trillion dollar global media piracy conspiracy...?

The writer's "comfort" has Sweet F All to do with their satisfactory fulfillment of contractual obligations. This isn't fandom. This is a business, get it done or get someone who can, period.

Actually the conversation would go more like this:

"Um, I can't write for Kes."
"You're fired."
"Wait, Kes meets a mysterious stranger...."

Done and done.

 

[Lynx]

I think that it's a lame excuse from those in charge. If the character "didn't go anywhere", then how could they come up with good stories about that character up to the last possible minutes of season 3?

As much as you love her, the character was ill-conceived. An alien who had a five-, then seven-, then nine-year lifespan (presumably so she could reach old age if the series went seven years), and came from the other side of the galaxy, but looked human with pixie ears. An actress with gorgeous, long, blond hair hidden under a wig that, in the pilot, resembled a mop head. She was in a relationship with Neelix, who called her "beloved" - and yet Kes didn't enter puberty until "Elogium"!

Why did they lose their ability to write for the character exactly between season 3 and 4

The writing was on the wall very early, hence the breakup (offscreen!) with Neelix.

Not to mention that Jeri Taylor could come up with at least one good kes story after Kes was gone (the one in the book "Pathways".

That book was written much earlier, but was delayed many months, because Paramount insisted that all new novels reflect the addition of Seven of Nine to the crew, so Taylor had to rewrite the prologue and epilogue - and Neelix had to magically channel the spirit of the departed Kes to tell her already-written origin story - to get it published.

If Kes was ill-conceived, then most of the characters in TOS, TNG, DS9 and Voyager are ill-conceived too. Not to mention that bunch of wood spoons in ENT and the third-rate TOS clones in the NuTrek movies.

I agree that the life-span was silly, a stupid attempt of the writers to come up with something Star trek never had had before. But it could easily have been changed by giving her a prolonged life-span, something whic was possible according to the episode "Cold Fire". As a matter of fact, it took me five minutes to sort that out in a story I wrote (not to mention the one minute it took to sort out the crap from that horrible episode in season 6) and if an amateur like me can do that then a professional writer is expected to do it too.

As for humanoids from the other side of the galaxy, well in Star Trek almost all characters look human even if they are from the Andromeda galaxy.

Nothing wrong with a pixie haircut and pointed ears. We have had pixies before (Ezri Dax), pointed ears (Vulcans and Romulans). We have had half-Klingons with ridged foreheads, not to mention females with biig boobs in catsuits (on a spaceship where the crew are supposed to wear uniforms). As for Kes's hair in the first episode, it looked far better than most of the boring hairstyles that female characters are supposed to have on a Federation starship.

As for the break-up with Neelix, it had nothing to do with Kes being shoved out. It was just a logical step because the relation was more and less over since season 2 when the writers must have realized that it didn't work. Unfortunately, they weren't able to come up with a decent breakup. So much for their skills.

In fact, the break-up looked more like a new beginning for Kes than an end.

Not to mention that Kim was the one who they planned to dump, not Kes.

As for Taylor's novel, it still proves that she was able to come up with good Kes stories in season 3, not to mention that Kes had more and better stories in that season than Kim, Neelix and even Tuvok. As for the re-writing of the book, well the dictatorship and Seven worship affected even the people at the top of the nomenklatura.

Maybe I should have thought about it when I tried to sell my idea for a book, it was about the wrong character.

 

[Lynx]

All the "I have amazing powers, they are getting bigger and bigger.." characters suck.

The only reason Q didn't totally suck was John de Lancie.

Lien is no de Lancie.

Kes's powers which were getting bigger and bigger was actually a certain writers half-a**ed attempt to get rid of the character as soon as possible ("The Gift"). Before that, her powers weren't that big or powerful. The only exception was in "Cold Fire" and then it was Tanis who was behind her increase of powers. When he left, so did her ability to use those extended powers.

As for Q, I like him! A great character!

 

[Guy Gardener]

She was supposed to die seconds before Voyager got to earth, or she was seconds away from death by Natural causes when old Kes did a Miles Dyson and played the part of a timer-clock for a bomb they needed to off a really bad person.

The natural life span's conclusion intersects perfectly with Season seven episode 26.

What the frick are the odds of that happening organically???!!!

If anyone cares, Continuum season four just started.

 

[hux]

Kes was a tedious character. If you're gonna make an alien species and give them a three year life-span then surely it would have made sense for those aliens to develop into adults within the first few months of life. Kes remained sweet and innocent right up to the end.

Why would I want to watch that?

Neelix was annoying but at least that gives me something to get my teeth into. I can love to hate him etc.

But nice is dull.

It's especially annoying because Lien had that silky, sexual voice (like warm honey running down the thighs of a great beauty). Had they made Kes a confrontational, opinionated, sarcastic grown-woman then that voice would have been sublime (Warlord sublime) but if you give that voice to an innocent who's worried about whether or not people are being nice to the doctor, it becomes grating, irritating, monotonous, droning.

 

[Michael]

Even sadder than what happened to Lien is the fact that it seems to be okay for US media to publicly denounce someone like this. And I'm not necessarily talking about her status as a has-been actress; this wouldn't be okay with anyone. Why are they allowed to give her full name AND her address? Honestly, I'm curious, why can they do that?

I love Jennifer Lien and I really love Kes. I just wish everyone would leave her the fuck alone. And I hope all turns out good for her.

 

[Lynx]

Kes was a tedious character. If you're gonna make an alien species and give them a three year life-span then surely it would have made sense for those aliens to develop into adults within the first few months of life. Kes remained sweet and innocent right up to the end.

Why would I want to watch that?

Neelix was annoying but at least that gives me something to get my teeth into. I can love to hate him etc.

But nice is dull.

It's especially annoying because Lien had that silky, sexual voice (like warm honey running down the thighs of a great beauty). Had they made Kes a confrontational, opinionated, sarcastic grown-woman then that voice would have been sublime (Warlord sublime) but if you give that voice to an innocent who's worried about whether or not people are being nice to the doctor, it becomes grating, irritating, monotonous, droning.

First of all, I'm not interested in some soapy, melodramatic death drama where someone dies slowly. If I want that, I can the news or get bored by "The Bold And The Beautiful".

Kes was never boring. She was nice and friendly but she had a strong will and was brave and determined when it was necessary.

The contrast between her nice appearance and how determined and strong-willed she could be was what made the character into something unique, very far from the stereotype female characters which often shows up in many series.

She was also a complement and a contrast to more typical action characters like Janeway and Torres.

M wrote:

Even sadder than what happened to Lien is the fact that it seems to be okay for US media to publicly denounce someone like this. And I'm not necessarily talking about her status as a has-been actress; this wouldn't be okay with anyone. Why are they allowed to give her full name AND her address? Honestly, I'm curious, why can they do that?

I love Jennifer Lien and I really love Kes. I just wish everyone would leave her the fuck alone. And I hope all turns out good for her.

I agree. I also hope that everything turns out good for her.

As for the name and address, it seems to be the policy of the local paper to do so in all cases. I'm not sure if it is the same all over the US.

It looks like the journalist had no clue at all about who she is.

 

[stardream]

Peers into an alternative timeline where Wang was fired from Voyager and Lien stayed

I see angry fans upset because the Paris/Kim friendship is over. I see declarations that the writers missed a great opportunity because Kim as the young 'green' ensign had tremendous opportunity for character growth.

(I don't have the heart to tell them. )

I see a love triangle between Tom/B'elanna and Kes.

(Ewww. I'm glad they avoided this. I have never been a fan of geometric love.)

I see Kes becoming hurt because her friends Janeway and The Doctor are spending too much time with Seven. She gets mad and blasts poor seven with her super powers.

(I'm just the messenger...and its just one possible future out of many possible futures. She and Seven could become great buddies for all I know)

A winkie face now and then, helps delineate subtext.

I was thinking the other day that Before and After, would have been a touchstone Voyager could have kept running into once or twice a season till they got home, as Kes (if she'd stayed) begins to notice Familiarities & discrepancies as the present catches up to her memories of the future.

Would she have pushed Torres away from that exploding console?

 

[EnriqueH]

I'm about halfway through Season 2 and I don't understand the "Kes hate".

I like that the Doctor took her under his wing, which was something I didn't remember or see (I saw Season 1 back in 1995 but have not seen Voyager consistently since then until now and have managed to stay relatively spoiler free.) And so, I like the relationship between those two.

I also thought "the love triangle" competitiveness between Tom Paris and Neelix for her affections was kind of interesting. I'm noticing the Trek characters have a "squeaky clean" feel to them around this era, so the realistic portrayal of this type of jealousy rang true since it was not over the top, but it still showed our idealistic futuristic heroes still have to grapple with basic human insecurities from time to time.

Speaking of Neelix, this is my pick for worst character. Halfway through Season 2, he seems to be settling down a little bit, which is a relief, but he kinda reminds me of a precursor to Jar Jar Binks in levels of annoyance. A talented character actor like Ethan Phillips barely made him tolerable and I think it's through the strength of the actor that I was able to hang on tightly. Still, Neelix was borderline ruining episodes for me.

A lot of people think Kim, but I haven't gotten that far into the series yet, but I don't think poorly of him at this point.

(My favorite characters are definitely Janeway and Chakotay at this point. I like Tom Paris too. Kim hovers between obscure background character (Billy Blackburn but with less intense features) or a sort of Chekov/Wesley fusion...a very intelligent, capable and ambitious young officer, but not as "gifted" as Wesley, (a character that I actually liked 99% of the time).

 

[Lynx]

^^
There are people who must have something or someone to hate.

Maybe Kes is a perfect victim in this case because she was kicked out from "the best show ever".

 

[JT Perfecthair]

Not to derail the thread but is there any information on how they were planning to deal with the Kim character? Just curious if they planned it long enough to have an onscreen death like Tasha Yar or whether it would have involved a heated discussion over a weekend with Wang and somebody just mentioning in the next episode "too bad Harry died."

 

[Catarina]

Personally, I liked the Kes from Warlord. I wanted more of that defending the doctor, hahaha. That schmuck who hurt his arm and doubted the EMH would have to deal with her and remain for surgery to prove the doctor's talent.