I think that happened in history once or twice...
Spoilers Is the Klingon War within canon?
- Thread starter timmy84
- Start date
Why can't they occupy 20% of the Federation? Occupy doesn't mean they've landed and subjugated a bunch of planets, but we know they're into that from TOS. It just means they could be controlling a lot of Federation space at that moment. We also don't exactly know how big the Federation is at this point, it isn't as big as it was during the TNG/DS9 era for certain.
It is because it's in Discovery. Canon is all made up.
That is an astonishing insight. I will endeavor to check my self-centered privilege and begin to embrace the Other.
One man's territory disputes is a Klingon's war?
So far the losses were in the thousands, on the UFP side. Sounds like a lot but considering the population of the UFP is many many billions, that's a tiny brushfire war. It implies no primary world occupations, bombardments, etc. It sounds like even 9 months later the Klingons are still mopping up and establishing the equivalent of air superiority. After that they can take their time. If you think of the Klingons as analogs to the Mongols, etc, which they were initially portrayed as, attacking armies almost always prefer sieges to open battles. If they are mongols, they'll take the field THEN besiege.
Battles open a degree of uncertainty (Darius probably thought himself secure at Gaugamela. Alexander changed the world in one day. Battles are risky.). Medieval armies almost always preferred sieges to battles. Sieges are secure and while they do slowly commit your forces to long operations, once you control the field (or space in this context), you can slowly roll over and take one territory after another.
I've probably thought this out too much.
Battles open a degree of uncertainty (Darius probably thought himself secure at Gaugamela. Alexander changed the world in one day. Battles are risky.). Medieval armies almost always preferred sieges to battles. Sieges are secure and while they do slowly commit your forces to long operations, once you control the field (or space in this context), you can slowly roll over and take one territory after another.
I've probably thought this out too much.
Ah, you made me check memory Beta, because I was always under the assumption it was just the FASA thing. But I see it was also in My Brother's Keeper: Republic. Not a fan of that trilogy.
There are at least three regions of space mentioned by name (and in the case of Archanis and the Briar Patch, shown on Lorca's tactical map) in both Discovery and other Trek series/films where territory has changed hands between the Federation and Klingons —and later back again— sometime in the mid-23rd century, so there is direct canon support (in addition to the other examples mentioned in the thread already):
Gamma Hydra -
Archanis Sector -
The Briar Patch / Klach D'kel Brakt:
(click to enlarge)
Gamma Hydra -
Archanis Sector -
The Briar Patch / Klach D'kel Brakt:
I doubt the Romulans and Klingons would be having a major battle for control of territory inside Federation space, so it seems likely that the Briar Patch/Klach D'Kel Brakt was in Klingon hands in 2271, possibly after having seized it from Federation territory during the war featured in DSC. Perhaps the reason the Bak'u had gone undisturbed by the Son'a up until Insurrection is that the Federation only regained the territory from the Klingons relatively recently, such as after the end of the brief Dominion-instigated Federation/Klingon War in DS9, and the Son'a couldn't manipulate the Klingons into helping them the same way they did with the Federation.
(click to enlarge)
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Since Discovery's maps are based off Starcharts, which pre-dated Enterprise Season 4, they have Klach D'Kel Brakt in Klingon space near the Romulan border (look above Klingon logo on the Discovery map), instead of it being the Briar Patch.
IMO Starcharts/Discovery position for it makes more sense considering Kor's dialogue in DS9 mentioned him fighting Romulans there.
IMO Starcharts/Discovery position for it makes more sense considering Kor's dialogue in DS9 mentioned him fighting Romulans there.
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And that's not the only thing. Considering that they use the map from Star Charts as a reference, we just have to add one place to the equation, which can also be seen on the zoomed-in map in Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad: The Archanis sector is in the lower left corner, close tho Qo'noS. Remember which sector Gowron would lay a claim on at the start of the Klingon-Federation War of 2372-3, in Broken Link? Kira also said in the same episode that the Klingons relinquished their claims to the sector a hundred years before. 116 years (since 2256) is not that much longer than a hundred years, especially if you consider the Treaty of Organia as well...
They say Gamma Hydra is 6 light years away, they don't say the system they're in is Gamma Hydra.
Sorry if I hit a nerve. What I meant with "humano-centrism" was that the previous assumption was Picard was referring to humanity's first contact with the Klingons leading to decades of war (this is seen in conjecture in the Star Trek Chronology), but we can now suppose that he was referring to the Vulcan first contact with the Klingons.
I never thought the Humans and Klingons ever fought a war with each other. They are cold war proxies. They may be itching to fight, and they may drag other people into their fight, but they don't seem to have ever had a hot war. I don't think they'd be so itchy after only 11 years to fight a giant galactic battle again.
Not at all. Picard didn't say that the bad start led instantly to war; it was just that, a bad start. Looked to me like the Klingons didn't fall in love with humans in "Broken Bow" and things got worse for four seasons.
"We taught them a lesson back in 1917, and they've hardly bothered us since then..."
