Spoilers Is the Klingon War within canon?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by timmy84, Feb 1, 2018.

  1. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That is what I expect. After MU Gorgeio's non-starfleeet tactics in the final episode, Burnham, Tyler, and Sarek use infroamtionm from the MU Voq to negotiate a peace and create the neutral zone. That would actually be cool to see on-screen what let to the creation of the neutral zone.
     
  2. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wrath of Khan is the first time a Neutral Zone is mentioned between the Klingons and Federation, in TOS the only Neutral Zone mentioned was with the Romulans.
     
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  3. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It has to be created sometime and we never saw its creation during TOS or during the movies so why couldn't it be the DSC war that created it or did it just get created between TOS and movies with no mention of what event caused it?
     
  4. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Organian peace treaty could have created it, just never mentioned.

    If it was set up before DSC, Klingons seemed to be crossing it all the time in TOS
     
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  5. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That is certainly possible and comes to my issue of the whole "but why has nobdoy ever mentioned it before?". So creating a neutral zone in TOS and not mentioning that is fine, but no mention of a war with the klingons 10 years earlier is a huge problem and violates canon and should have been mentioned. Both are big deals but it doesn't mean there was a reason to bring them up. I'd actually say not bringing up neutral zone in errand of mercy is a bigger oversight if that is when it happened.
     
  6. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If not mentioning a Cardassian war after 3-and-a-half seasons of TNG, only to have it come out of absolutely nowhere in "The Wounded", is excused and never discussed or complained about (and that was a long, drawn out conflict) I think we can give DSC a pass...especially since we don't know the end of the story to pass judgement about how it fits together.

    There's are also backstory lines in "Whom Gids Destroy" that make it clear Starfleet has been through a conflict earlier in Kirk's career.

    It all fits just fine if we are motivated to look at it that way. If we are predisposed to not like the show, we will find a way to make sure it does NOT fit.

    No magic to it really.
     
  7. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Not anymore. If it's on screen, it's canon. Canon does not need to respect continuity--it merely has to be presented on screen.

    As to not mentioning the war in Errand of Mercy, it's easy enough to infer from all the back and forth about "disputed areas". Not really a problem.
     
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  8. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, wasn't Kirk referred to as a 'warrior'?
     
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  9. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thank you and completrely agree.
     
  10. Krandor

    Krandor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ANd sarak is a master diplomat. We might see in the next 2 episodes where that reputation came from.
     
  11. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There was definitely a line that inferred that in his past he was a soldier at some point. I wish I could remember the exact line. It was during the dinner scene where Spock admits to feeling as though he could consider himself Kirk's brother
     
  12. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He was a gunner on the Farragut IIRC
     
  13. Geoff Peterson

    Geoff Peterson Robot Skeleton Sidekick Premium Member

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  14. Brainsucker

    Brainsucker Captain Captain

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    To be honest, I think that we shouldn't think too much about Star Trek canon. The reason is simple. Because there are too many heads who involved in writing the story of this Franchise, and every episodes (in TOS and TNG) were loosely independent episode that has weak connection to the others. You can't expect them to honor the previous writers idea and implement them to their story board if that canon is violating their own idea. It is different if Star Trek is the product of a single writer, and it is a serialized huge saga that connected to each other strongly. Like Game of Throne, The Expanse, etc. Plus Gene Roddenberry himself had said to ignore the TOS. Although they revisited TOS in DS9 and maybe Voyager, just consider them as filler, and ignore them.
     
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  15. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The original TWOK script had Romulans for that scene. Then they decided to reuse the visual effects from the first movie to save some money and changed them to Klingons, but they kept the "Neutral Zone" and "they take no prisoners" lines in the script.
     
  16. Supergirl

    Supergirl Not Awesome Possum Moderator

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    Just because it never came up, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
     
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  17. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If it's on the screen (and that oviously includes Discovery), then it's canon. It may not be consistent and may require some rationalization by fans but it is still canon.
     
  18. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Commodore Commodore

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    Canon is at the whim of the writers and it always has been, this why in TNG and DS9 we have mentions of The Cardassian War, the Talarian War, the Tzenkethi War and border conflicts with the Tholians. All of these appear to have occurred within a 10 - 15 year time span and a couple were still going on while the Enterprise was swanning around bumping into space jellyfish, lost colonies of irish people and having to put up with visits from Lwaxana Troi.

    The fact that people genuinely ask 'why we have never heard of this before' boggles my mind. We haven't heard of it because the writers made it up to suit a story they want to tell. That's it. It's unrealistic and somewhat entitled to expect writers to be beholden to our assumptions and expectation of events within star trek.

    If Discovery's Klingon War does need to be explained, it's pretty easy to do so. We know from TOS that the Federation has been in conflict with the Klingons for a long time. We also know that Kirk has a number of commendations from an unspecified military campaign and is considered one of Starfleets greatest tactical minds as a result. Why could these commendations not be because of Kirk's conducted in a Klingon conflict? We also know that Kirk became a Captain at a young age. In 'The War Without, The War Within' it's stated that a whole lot of experienced officers are dead, is this why Kirk rose up the ranks so quickly? We know from Deep Space Nine that at some point Kor, Kang and Koloth attacked a Federation Starbase on Caleb IV, it's never specified when the attack occurred, why could this have not been during the Klingon war of 2256? There is plenty of off the cuff information that can fit nicely into what is occurring on Discovery.
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Very much indeed, yessir.

    Heck, the writers keep on quoting extremely low casualty figures even now that they want to make the war seem big and important. Waving off a conflict where soldiers fight a lot but nobody much dies is simple. Cornwell argues that the Klingons are making uncoordinated if devastating attacks. The implication would be that they maximize their glorious victories by aiming at easy targets, which might mean targets with few defenders - or then by aiming at individual important military targets, where losses would be limited to soldiers.

    Which is why SB 1 and its 80,000 dead is still shocking to Cornwell, because on this "inner" starbase, not all of those folks were expendable soldiers, but there were actual people people in the mix, too.

    And the practical result of this is the opposite than what you appear to think - what the actors say is the only thing that matters, because it is the only part of the creative product that the writers ever manage to put into existence. All the rest remains nonexistent.

    Also, the characters through their actors stay part of the Trek creation forever. Writers disappear when they stop writing.

    Like Nerys Myk quoted from "Whom Gods Destroy", Kirk indeed seems to agree with Garth's assessment that he once was a warrior. He doesn't placate the madman elsewhere in that discussion, and this would be the perfect place to contradict him if Garth had it wrong. And the timeline is exactly right for Kirk to have fought the war of DSC.

    Although whether Axanar has anything to do with that is dubious. After all, Kirk did not fight at Axanar, but only read about Garth fighting there. Quite possibly, all that stuff happened long before DSC, as its practical results (Kirk and Spock serving as brothers) seem to predate DSC.

    He "manned the phaser station". We don't know if that was aboard the ship or on the planet, but the latter is sort of implied: all the phaser action that Kirk compares to his original poor showing is planetside, with sidearms, while the resilience of the creature to phaser fire from the ship's cannon comes as a total surprise to Kirk.

    I'd like to think of Kirk as a redshirt toting a phaser rifle on a hilltop. Or perhaps carrying a forward fire controller backpack allowing him to direct starship fire. In either case, the assumption seems to be that Captain Garrovick expected phasers to be necessary for his mission, even though this is seldom the case when Kirk beams down on a random planet. Perhaps Garrovick wanted to drill a hole in the planet for geological survey purposes and for that reason wanted Kirk to bring the tactical backpack?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Kol-Ut-Shan

    Kol-Ut-Shan Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Redefining canon leads to retcon, which can lead to more stories.
     
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