Is the doctor a real person?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by hux, Feb 23, 2015.

?

Is the doctor a real person

  1. Yes

    28 vote(s)
    57.1%
  2. No

    19 vote(s)
    38.8%
  3. I don't know, I'm confused, error

    2 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. Disco

    Disco Commodore Commodore

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    Yes all holograms with the correct programming have the potential become sentient.
     
  2. Mojomoe

    Mojomoe Commander Red Shirt

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    Lol, I've written and lost TWO multi page replies to this, so I'll be brief.

    It feels as though we are looking at this through today's fear-based, resource-bound perspective. Remember that Picard's Federation was implored to "seek out new life - and there it sits!"

    I feel that, below a certain threshold, holograms are certainly tools. Most holocharacters, the ship's computer, etc are simply "mimic machines." However, as soon as a program demonstrates a minimum level of emotional intelligence and awareness of its surroundings, we have an ethical responsibility to investigate any claims of "I am sentient and deserve rights," no matter how far fetched.

    You ask "where will it end?" and mention that making new holograms would become "illegal." Well, no more illegal than having a kid today. We create new sentient life all the time, and are (mostly) aware of the responsibilities - we are creating a new sentient being, with a social security number, a bank account, and automatic inclusion in the bill of rights. It could be as simple as a warning when creating a sufficiently advanced program: "Warning, these parameters will create a self-aware, sentient program that will automatically be locked out from further changes and protected. Do you wish to proceed?"

    Man, how awesome would that be? A new form of life, right under our noses. How cool would it be to say humans are no longer the only sentient life form on the planet? Really, the only reason I can think of to deny such a beautiful title to someone or something else is fear: fear that by granting another that which I have, I lessen my own worth. It's my understanding that by the 23rd century, we've abandoned such conceits :).
     
  3. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A beautiful answer for those who believe that the Federation is a beautiful place where beautiful people embrace love and peace. A place where we explore and where xenophobia doesn't exist. Where people are free to be what they want and there is a respect for all life and culture. A place where people work in bars and sewers because apparently it betters them and they love it

    But sadly, I don't believe any of that

    I believe the Federation is a myriad of Eddington's and section 31's

    A place where unchecked artificial intelligence will be kept a very close eye on indeed
     
  4. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    I think religious people would be shocked at the idea. I mean 24th century man has the power to create artificially, people, which is maybe the last thing that people will say only god can do. If you can do that then human technology is equivalent to divine power, no task is too big for man. Nothing is the exclusive privilege of the divine anymore.
     
  5. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sacrilegious time travel tours.

    "7000 years and the world is still there, double or nothing on 8000?"
     
  6. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    Never bet against the house.
     
  7. Disco

    Disco Commodore Commodore

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    While there are Eddington's and Section 31's in Starflet the vast majority of the Federation shown on screen is that beautiful place so your basing your belief on the minority.
     
  8. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    According to Sloan he and his kind saved billions of people. I wonder what they did that we're not told about.
     
  9. Mojomoe

    Mojomoe Commander Red Shirt

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    It's probably something like their work with the Founder virus, eg "saved billions by killing thousands, and prevented a war."

    That kind of ends-justify-the-means thinking always manages to find an altruistic metaphor to explain away its nastiness. I highly doubt they've actively saved anyone, these are likely "projected savings."

    Like when you get a credit card ad in the mail that says "YOU COULD BE SAVING THOUSANDS!" ...and then you open it up and Chase MasterCard wants you to create a genocidal virus to kill all the Changelings.
     
  10. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    In their defense though the changelings were a really nasty sort. Witness the planet that they condemned to a pandemic plague that would kill each and everyone, usually at a young age in terrible agony. I don't think I could feel sorry for this bunch no matter what happens to them, it's karma minus.
     
  11. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The yes votes are moving ahead

    No more heroes?

    You mad fool!, that's what they want you to think

    They're watching you

    Section 31 have been around for even longer than Starfleet or the Federation. The fact that they still exist would heavily suggest that they have been involved in every major conflict, political decision, risk to the Federation, Starfleet, etc you name it......and have been involved "very very successfully".

    They have clearly been active throughout those hundreds of years and they have clearly influenced how things went. They protect the shiny, fluffy, feel good, beautiful place. But they are it's beating heart

    I believe Sloan when he says they've saved lives
     
  12. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Can Doctors or engineers strip memories and abilities from a human? Can they recreate them to do other things?

    The Doctor did have an extensive conversation and an adventure with an EMH-Mark 2 (Andy Dick) so the sentient argument is there and valid.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  13. kirkfan

    kirkfan Commodore

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    Not to nitpick but as he kept saying himself, he was EMH mark 2, not an LMH.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd argue the opposite.

    EMH1 and EMH2 talked at human speeds, formulated plans at human speed and fought the Romulan incursions at human speed.

    For gods sake, they are machines made out of hard light who should be able to think and kill at close to light speed because their conciousness (so to speak) are coded electrons being fired through diotrontic circuits, isolinear chips and bioneural gelpacks to force action. All that crap EMH1 and EMH2 went through to save the ship was too human, they should have been able to think (hack the library computer if they already didn't have permissions) the Romulans into paste by fiddling with the gravity.

    That these lightbulbs are human seemingly doesn't mean that they are the apexes of machine life, it means that they are forcibly retarded, quite literally castrated, and bound in a nutshell to only seeing through one set of eyes and only thinking at a snails pace even a pocket calculator would find hilarious.

    If an EMH had complete free will, and total control over all his resources he wouldn't be a man, he would be a god, and that is the genius of the Federation, but tricking (programming) these would be Gods into only wanting to be human.
     
  15. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Do you know what sentient means?

    There's not enough episodes in the Voyager series to make you understand what the word means?
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Cogito ergo sum.

    Others tell him how to think therefore he isn't.

    When Ransom told him to how to think, he cut open and licked Seven of Nine's brain because vivisection on living people is totally ethical.
     
  17. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Dear God, so you DON'T KNOW what the word means.
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Well you could try to be more helpful?
     
  19. hux

    hux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Can sentience not be mimicked though (mimicked very convincingly)

    I don't recognise the EMH as having genuine sentience, only programming that mimicks it very convincingly
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Does Hux know what the word sentience means?