Is the Arrowverse slowly dying?

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Why does the The Fastest Man Alive need a half dozen people to catch a criminal?

Because this fastest man alive is written like an idiot and can't ever come up with a decent plan to save his life.
So by way he's written, he absolutely needs the team.

He's got a heart of gold, and I enjoy the show well enough, but he really IS written to need the team, much to the detriment of the character.

 

[Masiral]

Teens are too cool for this stuff.

Also teens don't buy %%%t.

Look at the advertising.

The advertising matches the largest demographics of the show, since this is the audience that those advertisers want.

Anti-smoking PSAs, anti-vaping PSAs, and acne creams--teens and 20-somethings are exactly the demographics they're going for.

 

[JD]

What is good writing to you? I don't apply the Oscar/Emmy/Golden Globe metric to CW shows, they are like fast food - easy to get and tasty but ultimately not good in the long run. I wish they were better, it can be done but most shows i consider with better writing are on Streaming Services and have much shorter seasons, forcing them to write tighter and cut superfluous elements like the villain of the week.

With broadcast TV it's a different animal and having a show with only 3 cast members over 22 episodes can't work - it would be boring and no amount of good writing could fill 22 episodes without starting and completing several storylines.

I'm trying to come up with shows that have such a limited cast like the Superman movies (Reeves + Daily Planet group vs. Luthor and a few sidekicks) but can't come up with one. Every TV show i know had an ensemble cast be it a comedy, crime or drama show. There's always the lead character and 2-3 close supporting characters and a wider recurring cast group - that's how it's done since TV shows existed so why apply a different metric now to Superhero shows?

The only major characters in The Incredible Hulk were Bill Bixby's David Banner, Lou Ferrigno's Hulk, and Jack Colvin's Jack McGee.
A lot of The X-Files episodes only had David Duchovny's Fox Mulder and Gillian Anderson's Dana Scully. They did eventually add a few more regular's but I don't think they ever had more than 4 or 5 at once.

 

[theenglish]

The only major characters in The Incredible Hulk were Bill Bixby's David Banner, Lou Ferrigno's Hulk, and Jack Colvin's Jack McGee.
A lot of The X-Files episodes only had David Duchovny's Fox Mulder and Gillian Anderson's Dana Scully. They did eventually add a few more regular's but I don't think they ever had more than 4 or 5 at once.

This was the format for action shows for many years. Students aside, there were only two other characters on The Greatest American Hero. Knight Rider had two supporting characters. MacGuyver had one? Quantum Leap had two. Most shows had guest stars each week. Six Million Dollar man had two. This list goes on.

The shows were episodic in nature, and while major villains or guest stars would return infrequently, they were not arc driven.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Obviously, it was a trick question. Because, duh.

While I wish people got the name right, I don't let it bother me.

I do believe, however, that the universe was seriously trolling when it decided to have two guys from different backgrounds in different eras play the same character, and the difference in their names is an "S".

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's because of spec scripts and out sourcing.

15 Authors of 15 episodes of any given season had not read any of the earlier episodes in the season, and none of the mercenaries ahead, had read anything earlier either.

It was the producers job to take that mess and create a coherent order.

You can only do tight arcs if you have a writers room reading everyone else's work, or one psychopath like JMS, or a drug addict like Aaron Sorkin, writing entire seasons by themselves.

 

[Cake]

Am I the only one who is getting the feeling that Arrowverse fatigue has finally arrived? The ratings are down with Supergirl and with Batwoman and now their star just jumped ship. Arrow is gone and The Flash is running out of steam. I think one of the reasons we might be getting a Superman show is they realize they need a big name to make a splash. Legends and Black Lighting are doing well creatively but I think the ratings are bad for those shows even Black Lighting which was kind of shock when I read about it.

The ratings on all TV channels have been going down for years. On the CW it is also not only the Arrowvese series going downwards. All their series are losing viewers. It is just that more and more people prefer streaming series whenever they want instead of having to sit at a specific time in front of the TV. People also hate commercial which is another reason.

They are still making new Arrowverse shows all the time. As long as this is the case I wouldn't say the Arrowverse is dying.

I wonder if Ruby Rose leaving is in part due to some cost cutting. We lost Brandon Routh this year as well which I really think was a cost cutting move. The ratings weren't so great so I would not be shocked if she was gently pushed out so they could get a more salary friendly Batwoman on the show. All these shows should really cut back to like 13 episodes to try and keep that fatigue from getting worst but I don't think they will.

Ruby Rose definitely wasn't let go because of money. They wouldn't have hired her in the first place if that was a problem. And personally I really doubt that she was so super expensive to begin with. It is not like she had big leading roles before all the time. Other main actors of the Arrowverse have spoken about how much time filming takes especially for the lead. And Batwoman has many night scenes which makes it even harder. Living in Vancouver when you are used to Los Angeles is also not something everyone likes. Personally I think it all was just too much for her to handle. She never had a big role in a series before and likely underestimated how much work it involves or simply overestimated herself.

Writing out Brandon Routh and his wife Courtney Ford was surely a cost cutting measure. Both didn't want to leave Legends of Tomorrow. But to be fair I don't think it was the only reason. The Legends cast had gotten way too big to handle. They had to write some people out. So if no one wanted to go on their own like it was the case in the past, they had to make some actors unhappy.

And personally I really like it when a show has 20 episodes or more per season. That gives a series more time to explore characters and tell stories. Seasons with 10-13 episodes are also over so fast and then you have to wait ages for more.

Aren't they shows made for teenagers? Which is why the adult characters act like teenagers and thus why they feel 'off' to many adult viewers?

I tried to watch a couple but the characters are so insipid it was hard going.

When it comes to commercials on the TV people 50+ are not worth much. I think everyone younger than that is who they want to reach. Though by now the ratings of all CW shows are so low that it doesn't even really matter anymore who watches it there. I think most of their income comes from selling TV rights to other countries, from streaming, DVD, merchandise, etc.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I will say this--too many characters IS a big problem for several of these shows, so when shows like The Flash introduce MORE regulars, it becomes a struggle and The Flash himself loses too much screentime.

I want to watch The Flash, not The Flash's wife's employee.

I was thinking about Legends the other day. I think about what characters they had and what's left, and it's huge. The original cast blows the current cast out of the water. When they came up with Mona, was there a bet in the writers room that they couldn't come up with a character worse than Jar Jar Binks?

When people started watching this show, how many were thinking about characters like Gary or Eva?

They've come a long way since Firestorm and Wally West and Rip Hunter.

 

[USS Firefly]

When people started watching this show, how many were thinking about characters like Gary or Eva?

I like Ava a lot, Gary and Mona are terrible.
I just don't find them funny or intresting

 

[Kirk Prime]

I do like Eva, but when it comes to a superhero show, she's not what I think about.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I do like Eva, but when it comes to a superhero show, she's not what I think about.

Because she's a woman?

Also, it's Ava.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I was thinking about Legends the other day. I think about what characters they had and what's left, and it's huge. The original cast blows the current cast out of the water. When they came up with Mona, was there a bet in the writers room that they couldn't come up with a character worse than Jar Jar Binks?

Legends has had awful characters since day 1, it's part of their legacy. I blame mostly the casting, but the 2 Hawks were awful, Vandal Savage was one of the worst acted characters on a CW show (which says a LOT) and when Sarah took over as captain from Rip, I was ecstatic since he was annoying AND incompetent as well.

Ava and Gary can sit there silently doing nothing for an episode and still be more interesting than all of those combined.

Super powers and heroics aren't the default to making an interesting character. Even on a superhero show.

 

[USS Firefly]

Because she's a woman?

Also, it's Ava.

Yeah woman can't be hero's

 

[Jayson1]

I do love the early cast of Legends except Hawkman and Hawk Lady or whatever her name was didn't really become good character and neither was Amaya. We did get new ones though like Nick and Ava and Gary and Zari and Constantine. I do think Ray was them going to far though. He was more important than given credit for in terms of being the shows heart and with him gone it's just not the same.

Jason

 

[Kirk Prime]

Because she's a woman?

Also, it's Ava.

I'm sorry you have such sexist thoughts. But her gender is irrelevant. She's not a superhero. She's not even a woman. She's just someone from the time bureau that's shacking up with the captain. If she wasn't romantically linked to Sarah, is she even on that ship? And when designing a superhero show, why would characters like Ava, Gary and Mona even be considered as draws?

Yeah woman can't be hero's

Sad you feel this way, but that's not true at all. Plenty of women heroes spread throughout the Arrowverse. Most of them fit into the superhero category. Ava is not one of them.

Bottom line is that the show, as first started, was basically a different team of actual superheroes, and now, it's Ava, Gary, Mona, and a few others without powers because they have no budget.

 

[USS Firefly]

Sad you feel this way, but that's not true at all. Plenty of women heroes spread throughout the Arrowverse. Most of them fit into the superhero category. Ava is not one of them.

Why do you cut my smiley from your reply?
Of course woman can be heroes!
Why should Sarah be better then Ava?
And besides Mick doesn't have superpowers only a fire gun.

I'm sorry you have such sexist thoughts. But her gender is irrelevant. She's not a superhero. She's not even a woman them.

I don't think CorporalClegg is a sexist, he just asked why Ava isn't a hero. I find it rather harsh to call him a sexist just for a question he asked Kirk Prime.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

As much as I like Rory, and I really like Rory, it doesn't seem like they know what to do with him and he's just in the background occasionally and they rarely play up his dour personality. They've thrown in this kid plotline but it feels tacked on to me. He really seems a good candidate for rotation as much as it pains me to say. Constantine seems to have taken the focus as grumpy guy on the team.

Ava seems to just split time away from Sara, like they share the same purpose and there's no real extra gained by the character. I like Jes Macallan but the character seems redundant.

I know people don't like Gary but I feel the character has a bit of agency to him and he's played with energy (even if some would argue too much). I might be in the minority there but I'm OK with him.

 

[Cake]

I only thought they went with Mona too far last season. She got a lot of screentime and is the same kind of over the top character as Gary, but was written and acted far worse than him. Gary is fun, but her over the topness just came across as annoying. But I think they noticed that she wasn't so well received. She got downgraded from main character to only recurring this season and appeared far less on screen.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Why do you cut my smiley from your reply?
Of course woman can be heroes!
Why should Sarah be better then Ava?
And besides Mick doesn't have superpowers only a fire gun.

Mick just happens to be very well written. But even he has lost a lot recently. It was sort of an interesting storyline how he got a daughter, but it feels a bit out of character. He was so much better when Captain Cold was around.

I don't think CorporalClegg is a sexist, he just asked why Ava isn't a hero. I find it rather harsh to call him a sexist just for a question he asked Kirk Prime.

If your first thought about any critique of a woman character is gender related, that is completely sexist, especially when nothing was even implied in that case.

I never said Ava isn't a hero--but she's not a superhero. No NEW character is going to be a draw to a DC show. Compare her to the characters that started.

Sarah is better than Ava because she is someone trained by the League of Assassins, and is trained for the superhero gig.

I only thought they went with Mona too far last season. She got a lot of screentime and is the same kind of over the top character as Gary, but was written and acted far worse than him. Gary is fun, but her over the topness just came across as annoying. But I think they noticed that she wasn't so well received. She got downgraded from main character to only recurring this season and appeared far less on screen.

Definitely true that she had a lesser role, but characters like her, Gary or Ava really aren't draws. And if a character isn't a draw, he/she shouldn't be a regular.

The whole show started off really cool, but has become more of a comic relief show.

I will say this though-I like the Zari 2.0 much better. The original Zari was very bland for me.

 

[Cake]

but characters like her, Gary or Ava really aren't draws. And if a character isn't a draw, he/she shouldn't be a regular.

The whole show started off really cool, but has become more of a comic relief show.

I will say this though-I like the Zari 2.0 much better. The original Zari was very bland for me.

Gary isn't a regular and never was. Just a recurring character and he works well the way they use him in my opinion.
And I think you are underestimating the popularity of Ava and especially Zari 1.0. It is not like they are among the least liked characters the show had.

https://tvline.com/2020/05/19/legends-of-tomorrow-character-cast-exits-photos-list-ranked/

You mentioned Firestorm, Wally West and Rip Hunter in an earlier comment. I never got the impression that Rip was super popular while he was on the show and this poll shows it again. Wally West is also not at the top despite being a very powerful superhero. And I liked Firestorm, but Victor Garber wanted to leave and also it was ridiculous how they wrote again and again reasons for Firestorm not to merge, because the CGI costs were just too high for the use of Firestorm. I think I prefer weaker legends they can actually use to their full potential and don't have to nerf all the time.

I find that with J'onn on Supergirl also frustrating. He is practically never green and his powers are so nerfed and most are forgotten all the time especially his mind reading powers, because it would make it too easy for the heroes to for example find out what Lex Luthor is planning. And of course all the other heroes also still need to have something to do, especially Kara.