Is the Arrowverse slowly dying?

[The Realist]

I get why teams and earphone jockeys are useful as dramatic devices -- they give the hero someone to talk to and interact with, so we're not just watching them silently doing stuff by themselves -- but they dilute and distract from the show's focus character, plus the formula is just tired tired tired at this point. It's become a storytelling crutch, and the Arrowverse creatives need to think of a new approach.

 

[Jayson1]

If they need someone to talk to you got the villain. Heroes and bad guys are suppose to banter back and forth with each other.

Jason

 

[Ssosmcin]

Christopher Reeve didn’t need a team and he didn’t have any lack of dialog.

 

[tomalak301]

I don't mind the team aspect, but they are pretty much the same in all the shows. What is the difference, for example, of the teams in Arrow and Flash. You have the main guy (Oliver or Barry), the love interest (Iris or Falicity), the tech guy (Cisco or Curtis), The wisdom guy (Diggle or Joe West), and a few other side characters (Renee or Ralph). These shows are getting packed with characters and the focus is being taken off of the main character, the one the show is supposed to be about. If I'm watching The Flash, I want to see... The Flash.

 

[The Realist]

Christopher Reeve didn’t need a team and he didn’t have any lack of dialog.

Well, during the big post-earthquake disaster/rescue sequences in Superman '78, he had little if any dialogue. OTOH, they worked great without it.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well obviously nobody needs to talk all the time. If that same sequence was done on The Flash, Barry would be panic talking over his comms the whole time.

 

[The Realist]

Yes. Yes, he would.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Black Lightning I couldn't get into.

Legends is dead to me. What started out as a quest premise about Rip became this f'ked up comedy with a bunch of aholes.

It seems like the shows that deviate from the formula the most are the ones you're not watching.

 

[The Realist]

It seems like the shows that deviate from the formula the most are the ones you're not watching.

This is true. And Black Lightning is the best of the bunch. What's not to "get into"?

Though thinking about it, BL actually does incorporate a lot of the formula elements we've been talking about here. Gambi is in Jefferson's ear all the time, and there is an ever-expanding roster of metahuman heroes surrounding him. But it feels fresher for a lot of reasons, from the family and cross-generational dynamics, to the overall tone and energy, to the sheer raw quality of the writing. So maybe the problem is not just those formula elements, but how they're used?

 

[Ssosmcin]

This is true. And Black Lightning is the best of the bunch. What's not to "get into"?

Though thinking about it, BL actually does incorporate a lot of the formula elements we've been talking about here. Gambi is in Jefferson's ear all the time, and there is an ever-expanding roster of metahuman heroes surrounding him. But it feels fresher for a lot of reasons, from the family and cross-generational dynamics, to the overall tone and energy, to the sheer raw quality of the writing. So maybe the problem is not just those formula elements, but how they're used?

Don’t know what to tell you. Watched the first few episodes of Black Lightning and it didn’t grab me.

I really liked Legends when it started. It was like DCs Blake’s 7. Then it went left into a wacky comedy which is not what I signed up for. All the good characters left (Rip, Snart, the professor, etc).

Stargirl had an amazing pilot. I’ll follow it for now.

 

[JD]

Superman and Lois are the team. With little super baby, I guess. And maybe Bibbo Bibbowski...

There isn't going to be a baby in the show, one of the post-Crisis changes is that Clark and Lois have two teenage sons now, instead of a baby.

I'm really hoping they don't go that route. I think it's hurt Supergirl in some ways, plus as noted, it's such pure formula at this point that a different approach would be fresh and welcome. Superman & Lois should have exactly one costumed hero, the one in the title.

I'm hoping for at least one or two more costumed heroes before the end of the first season. It's boring as hell when there's only one person doing all of the superheroing.

 

[The Realist]

I'm hoping for at least one or two more costumed heroes before the end of the first season. It's boring as hell when there's only one person doing all of the superheroing.

That way lies most of what we're complaining about in this thread.

 

[Ssosmcin]

All of the successful solo superhero movies show they ain’t so boring. You can have a great supporting cast and have interesting stories with absolutely none of those people having a super power other than the villain.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Film and television are completely different.

Series - especially shows with full 22 ep seasons - pretty much need an ensemble to function, not just artistically but practically/logistically as well.

 

[JD]

All of the successful solo superhero movies show they ain’t so boring. You can have a great supporting cast and have interesting stories with absolutely none of those people having a super power other than the villain.

That's fine for a 1.5 - 2 hour movie once a year or so, but a bit more variety is nice in a 8-25 hour season.

 

[The Realist]

Film and television are completely different.

Series - especially shows with full 22 ep seasons - pretty much need an ensemble to function, not just artistically but practically/logistically as well.

Superman/Clark Kent. Lois Lane. Jimmy Olsen. Perry White. The prototypical -- and still the best -- superhero ensemble.

Yes, you need a supporting cast. But they don't have to suit up, or otherwise be all up in the superheroing business.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Wonder Woman (3 seasons)
Batman (3 seasons)
The Incredible Hulk (5 seasons - okay 4 and a bit)
The Flash (CBS) (1 season)
The Adventures of Superman (5 seasons)
Lois and Clark (4 seasons)
Superboy (4 seasons)

Seriously guys, it’s not like there has never been a superhero series before the CW.

It can be done, the supporting cast and stories just need to be well written. Not every TV series needs to be a team show.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Most of those are pretty terrible and don't hold up at all without nostalgia goggles. The only one that does is animated.

 

[Ssosmcin]

They worked at the time. That’s all that matters (and Hulk is still good). The CW shows will become kitsch over time like anything else.

My point is, you don’t need a team to make it not boring. You need good writing to make it not boring. Why does the The Fastest Man Alive need a half dozen people to catch a criminal? Why does a Kyptonian need a massive organization to help her do her job? If they weren’t set up to be so powerful, that’s that’s one thing. But Kara has every power Kal does. Superman is way over-powered to consider anything a threat. The Flash can run so fast he can cook my breakfast and do the dishes before I saw him enter the room. But every damned week, he needs Team Flash in his ear giving him intel. Maybe that’s fun for too guys, but it’s the same thing every week and to me THAT is boring.

 

[theenglish]

I'm always a little shocked when I see people complain about the teams aspects of the Arrowverse shows, it's one of my favorite things about. I've always loved shows with big ensembles, and I've always thought these shows had great casts. I'll admit The Flash's might be getting a bit to big, but I love the Supergirl, Black Lighting, and Batwoman casts. I always find it a bit boring when you only have one or two characters who do everything by themselves.

For me, it is not the casts and the team ensemble--it is just that we don't need the same formula for every show. Black Lightning has a great cast but the way it is written is much different. The family dynamic works really well and the other characters have been added on organically to the plot. It looks like Superman and Lois will be different again. I just don't want Batwoman to go the same way as Flash, Supergirl and Arrow in terms of building a team.