Is Starfleet a military organization?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Commander Troi, Jul 27, 2021.

  1. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    Oh no, this is an issue we're tackling.
     
  2. hofner

    hofner Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    I've heard the term "civilian courts martial" bandied about in these kinds of debates.

    Yes, there's no way I can ever say that phrase with a straight face.

    Robert
     
  3. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    I suspect that term is used by people who really don't know what a court martial is. At least based on one time in one of the other threads on this matter when that was brought up someone asked "is a Starfleet court marital like a military court martial or a civilian court martial?"
     
    Commander Troi likes this.
  4. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    By the 24th century you had, despite being after the Borg attack, Kira thinking and saying she thought Starfleet "doesn't believe in warships" aside from the Defiant, it seems that Starfleet had overwhelmingly changed both its impression and its actual functioning.

    Again, ranks, uniforms, carrying and using weapons and internal discipline (and references to non-members as civilians) are also in police departments.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
    NCC-73515 and Commander Troi like this.
  5. suarezguy

    suarezguy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2008
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM, USA
    Picard even in that scene did seem to actually be meaning that it is not primarily a military organization, he did throughout the show acknowledge that Starfleet had the right and duty to defend the Federation. But it's a very unusual type of military, not like what we understand today, where superiors would merely request that a ship captain engage in combat training, where officers are genuinely surprised that they would have to engage in combat.
     
    Commander Troi likes this.
  6. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    That was post Wolf-359 and Ben Sisko lead the R&D on the Defiant Class since he lost his wife to "The Borg".

    And the fact that it didn't go into full production until the middle of the Dominion War shows you how much StarFleet was holding back on producing a "WarShip".

    It's not like Utopia Planetia didn't have the designs to mass produce the "Defiant Class" & Benjamin Sisko & Chief O'Brien figured out the issues to the OverPowered Warp Core problems LONG before the Start of the Dominion War.

    And Geordi La Forge & Chief O'Brien can't be the only good Engineers in the fleet, there has to be hundreds to thousands of solid Engineers that could've figured it out long before Ben Sisko request the Defiant Class and made it work.
     
  7. oberth

    oberth Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2017
    Location:
    (new) berlin
    i think i recall problems with an engine too big for so small a ship that still needed figuring out and the defiant prototype being pressed into service as a desparate meassure in desperate times

    ... otoh we all know that starfleet admirals are a bunch of morons who can't find their own asses with both hands, enough light and two orderlies to help them
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2021
  8. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    I think it's the latter
     
    Worf factor9 likes this.
  9. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    That could just be a way of saying they don't believe in single-purpose warships that can't also handle the exploration and scientific mission in peacetime.

    And again, police departments don't place their officers under a separate legal system that is different from the one that everyone else falls under.
     
  10. ProwlAlpha

    ProwlAlpha Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Location:
    Duluth, MN
    Given the destruction of the Odyssey and Ben Sisko's awesome presentation skills, the Defiant was given to him because it was sitting in a mothball setting with the Starfleet brass saying why not.
     
  11. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2016
    What police department uses weapons of mass destruction, and has police captains who can order their use?
     
  12. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    Cops don't fight wars. :shrug:
     
  13. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    SoCal
    SISKO: Officially, it's classified as an escort vessel. Unofficially, the Defiant's a warship. Nothing more, nothing less.

    That could be the attitude for our topic as well: Officially, SF is not a military, but unofficially, it is.

    Also, wasn't the Defiant the first warship SF ever built? What kind of military takes 200 years to build its first warship? Are real-world military ships all warships?
     
  14. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Worf in the 23rd Century Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Deep Space Station K7
    No warships. Sure.
    Denial runs deep through Starfleet. :lol:
     
    J.T.B. likes this.
  15. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    Which is just stupid. Anybody who doesn't think an escort is a warship should sit down and watch The Cruel Sea or The Enemy Below. Two-thirds of British/Commonwealth naval casualties in WW2 were in escort vessels.
     
    Worf factor9 likes this.
  16. oberth

    oberth Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2017
    Location:
    (new) berlin
    i guess what is said about the connie in axanar is kinda non-canon?
     
  17. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    Location:
    SoCal
    GUINAN: This is not a ship of war. This a ship of peace.
     
    suarezguy likes this.
  18. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Worf in the 23rd Century Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Deep Space Station K7
    Sure. A fully armed ship of peace.
     
  19. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    I doubt it.
     
  20. oberth

    oberth Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2017
    Location:
    (new) berlin
    they said so