Is Star Fleet Battles officially dead?

[Norsehound]

I think you're 100% right for the vast majority of people. People have less time nowadays, and millenials in particular want to have something akin to instant gratification. I had a kid at a convention tell me that he thought half an hour was a LONG TIME for a game. Console games take away a lot of wargaming's audience. Euro games take another chunk.

I'm a millennial. I'm willing to sit down for three hours or more for an engaging experience, but what tries my attention span are complex calculations that break me out of the immersion. I'm playing games for fun, not to do homework. I know other folks my generation and younger who are more than willing to sit for a 4+ hour game of 8-player Game of Thrones board game... or that long for Twilight Imperium's myriad mechanics.

I'd wager the reason modern games, eurogames and consoles are drawing audiences away from wargames is because they can have the same amount of fun without the cognitive loads of itemized rules and complicated CRTs inherent in older classic wargames. They can also be completed in far less time.

Again, I appreciate what you're saying, but for me it's just the opposite. When I think of great games, with lots of replayability, I'm thinking Terrible Swift Sword, Atlantic Wall, War in Europe, etc. Fed Commander, for me, is a step up from Battleship, maybe two. I just have zero interest in it.

Considering I haven't seen these titles in any of the conventions I've attended, nor did they appear in the stint I served working in a board gaming store, I'd guess the mainstream gaming community does not share your view. I and others figured classic wargaming was niche in an already niche hobby.

That said I'd love to get GDW's Imperium back to the table someday.

I could, fairly easily, fix SFB, at least to my satisfaction. I still don't think it would have any mass appeal, however, and as I've said upstream, I can't find people locally who will play it. As for Fed Commander, ADB says it's popular, but I have my doubts. I never see it in stores or being played at cons, but that could be for a wide variety of reasons. The only people I ever see discussing it are people who apparently get free copies for playtesting and the like. I have to believe that they sell more than that, unless they're making all their money on Shapeways nowadays.

If I were to set out doing a trek space battle game with the spirit SFB accomplishes, I'd dump classic SFB entirely and rebuild the game from the ground up, taking pointers from modern games.

 

[StarCruiser]

Basically, create two sets of rules together. A simplified system that plays fast (results tables and the like to clean out the paperwork) and a more complex for those who want more "meat" in the game..?

 

[ChallengerHK]

I'm a millennial. I'm willing to sit down for three hours or more for an engaging experience, but what tries my attention span are complex calculations that break me out of the immersion.

Hope I wasn't inadvertently insulting. That said, I have to stick by my statement. I don't think any quality will be shared by all members of any group, but the millenials that I've watched and gamed with in general wanted two things: speed, and downplaying strategy in favor of more randomness. I watched a bunch of people playing Quarriors about ten or so years ago, and they were really into it. When I asked why, they said "It's fast. We can play a dozen games in the time it takes to play one of your games."

Considering I haven't seen these titles in any of the conventions I've attended, nor did they appear in the stint I served working in a board gaming store, I'd guess the mainstream gaming community does not share your view. I and others figured classic wargaming was niche in an already niche hobby.

Again, you're 100% correct, a niche within a niche. Back in the day, Harpoon, DBA, microarmour and similar games ruled the roost. I watched RPGs take out a chunk, then card games, then euro games. They did (and do) offer experiences that wargames cannot offer.

If I were to set out doing a trek space battle game with the spirit SFB accomplishes, I'd dump classic SFB entirely and rebuild the game from the ground up, taking pointers from modern games.

Depends on the goal. If the goal is to get lots of people to play a Star Trek-based quasi-wargame, you have described the solution. All games are simulating something (or at least trying to). Modern games just don't enthrall me. I played a Euro game a few years back. I spent half of the game setting up a strategy, and when I went to implement it my opponent played a card that negated everything I had done. Didn't require preparation, or strategy, or an understanding of my capabilities versus his. Just luck of the draw for getting that card. If I had won that way, in any game, I'd be embarrassed.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Basically, create two sets of rules together. A simplified system that plays fast (results tables and the like to clean out the paperwork) and a more complex for those who want more "meat" in the game..?

Maybe. Consider, though, that Fed Commander is, according to the publishers, just that. I think it's far too simplistic, and Norsehound doesn't think it goes far enough :-) I guess if they kept the complexity of SFB for the high end, and then pulled out about half of FC for the low end, it might please us both. It almost sounds like it's two unrelated games at that point, though.

 

[StarCruiser]

I doubt you've played the "Star Fleet Battle Manual" (Lou Zocchi's game from the early 70's). That one was VERY much simpler than SFB (and is the source for the classic plastic minis as well).

I haven't played in - literally - decades so...? Simple overhead view of the ship in question, movement based on warp speeds - 1cm per turn for warp 1, 8 per turn for warp 2 etc...

Used strings tied to the base to represent the weapons range and arcs as marked on the base (same one from classic SFB). A hit typically caused one damage, and so on...

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3667/star-fleet-battle-manual

 

[ChallengerHK]

Own it and played it. It's OK. I thought the rules were kind of clunky overall, but it definitely fits in the old school wargaming mode. My biggest issue was that there was no provision for play without miniatures. That being said, those minis were a joy. It's a shame that they're out of production; the injection molded stuff puts the 3D printed stuff to shame, at least right now.

 

[StarCruiser]

They're still out there - whether they are in production or not...

https://www.starfighter-decals.com/sfd07-class-1-starship-collect071.html

 

[ChallengerHK]

Yeah, I asked Zocchi (the company) a couple of years back if they were in production, and they said something like "kinda, but not really." I interpreted this as there is a way to get them if you really want them.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

SFB is in the same boat. The complex mechanics pushes this game out of the eyes of mainstream gamers, where they turn to things like Attack Wing for their star trek fix. SFB's lore is interesting, but I've heard the complexity ridiculed more often than praised. It's all well and good for devoted fans to keep the game alive but would you rather do that, or pick up something that is also star trek and takes far less time?

Federation Commander is a nice step in that direction but I feel like it doesn't go far enough. It's a distillation of SFB, not a new game setting out to accomplish the same objective with modern mechanics.

For myself, neither SFB nor WizKid's derivative theme-pasted-on Attack Wing do it for me in terms of satisfying starship battles on the tabletop. At this point, I'd be more likely to design my own than play either of them.

Play Talon. Influence by SFB, it simplifies the combat mechanics and has simple results tables while maintaining the flavor of SFB. Moreover, it sets up in just a few minutes … much more quickly that SW:X-Wing/ST:Attack Wing and SW:Armada.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Thanks for that. I just read the reviews, and overall it sounds interesting. I'm guessing it will appeal to me a lot more than Norsehound, however, from the reviews.

 

[Norsehound]

Play Talon. Influence by SFB, it simplifies the combat mechanics and has simple results tables while maintaining the flavor of SFB. Moreover, it sets up in just a few minutes … much more quickly that SW:X-Wing/ST:Attack Wing and SW:Armada.

I dunno, one of the reviews seemed to be promising. I don't think I have a problem with the impulse mechanic so much as long as everything flows around it ok, which seems to be the case in Talon. I'd be open to trying it. In the very least I'd like to look over the rules and maybe sitdown for a try.

 

[ChallengerHK]

If I can find somebody who wants to try it I'll give it a shot. You aren't anywhere near Washington DC are you?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I'm in the Raleigh-Durham area, if you are ever by. You might also look to see if you can find an opponent on either Tabletop Simulator of Vassal (I don't use either platform).

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/125196/talon-official-rulebook

 

[ChallengerHK]

I am so far out in the country that my internet connection is barely viable, which keeps me from enjoying electronic gaming long distance. Most days I have more luck connecting on my phone than on my computer. Probably one of the reasons that I'm pining for the lost days of face to face wargaming.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I am so far out in the country that my internet connection is barely viable, which keeps me from enjoying electronic gaming long distance. Most days I have more luck connecting on my phone than on my computer. Probably one of the reasons that I'm pining for the lost days of face to face wargaming.

How do you get your wargaming fix? Solitaire? Some of the few phone apps, like Twilight Struggle?

 

[ChallengerHK]

Mostly solitaire on Xbox (very few wargames available) and PC (a little more, but not much). Generalli I stick to older titles that I know I find satisfying (Forza on Xbox, Midway, although it's more of a strategic simulation rather than a tactical simulation, Starcraft, Sins of a Solar Empire, Homeworld, Ghost Recon on PC). The problem, as I'm sure you realize, is that after a while you can predict the AI far too well. Age of Kings can produce large, randomized maps which occasionally will emphasize another race's advantages and make it hard for me to win on the highest difficulty level, but that's less than one in ten games.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Mostly solitaire on Xbox (very few wargames available) and PC (a little more, but not much). Generalli I stick to older titles that I know I find satisfying (Forza on Xbox, Midway, although it's more of a strategic simulation rather than a tactical simulation, Starcraft, Sins of a Solar Empire, Homeworld, Ghost Recon on PC). The problem, as I'm sure you realize, is that after a while you can predict the AI far too well. Age of Kings can produce large, randomized maps which occasionally will emphasize another race's advantages and make it hard for me to win on the highest difficulty level, but that's less than one in ten games.

Tactical is not really all that easy to find for tabletop games. The expansion for Talon, Talon 1000, has a reasonable bot. There are the two Fields of Fire games that have super high learning curves. Conflict of Heroes has a solitaire module, although I've never played it. In miniatures, there's a solitaire/co-op mode for Fallout Wasteland Warfare (I haven't played this mode, but I really love the game) and a separate solitaire module for Walking Dead: All Out War (which I've never played).

ETA: Currently on Kickstarter is a Company of Heroes board game which promises solitaire, but I am concerned about the company making it, IIABH.

 

[Noname Given]

I doubt you've played the "Star Fleet Battle Manual" (Lou Zocchi's game from the early 70's). That one was VERY much simpler than SFB (and is the source for the classic plastic minis as well).

I haven't played in - literally - decades so...? Simple overhead view of the ship in question, movement based on warp speeds - 1cm per turn for warp 1, 8 per turn for warp 2 etc...

Used strings tied to the base to represent the weapons range and arcs as marked on the base (same one from classic SFB). A hit typically caused one damage, and so on...

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3667/star-fleet-battle-manual

^^^
It was an interesting game to be sure but you needed a lot of long string, or long tape measures, and an area the size of a football field to play it most times.

 

[StarCruiser]

Not quite a football field but, yeah - you definitely needed room to maneuver (literally)!

 

[ChallengerHK]

Long ago I saw online a group of images from what appeared to be some kind of convention. They were playing a game in a ballroom, might have been SFB, SFBM or the FASA combat game, not sure. They had AMT/Ertl models as the miniatures, with all of the players seated at tables outside the field of play, and the gamemasters in the huge playing field actually moving the minis. Looked like a blast.