Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[BillJ]

so i write out the reason that is not the case, but because i wrote a lot, you just sum it up as you want to, exactly the opposite of my point. Well done

Because your reasons are horseshit and not worth debating. Essentially, your argument boils down to Rey is a "Mary Sue" because she doesn't have the same plot objectives as Luke.

 

[fireproof78]

so i write out the reason that is not the case, but because i wrote a lot, you just sum it up as you want to, exactly the opposite of my point. Well done

Your point made no sense. It was a wall of text that assumed everyone agrees.

 

[Smellmet]

you are an idiot.

Shit like this doesn't help your argument either.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Shit like this doesn't help your argument either.

i will agree with that.. it was uncalled for. but maybe people can read what i wrote.. it's like they would complain if didn't answer, or they complain that i wrote too much..

 

[Smellmet]

i will agree with that.. it was uncalled for. but maybe people can read what i wrote.. it's like they would complain if didn't answer, or they complain that i wrote too much..

They are reading. Just not agreeing with you.

 

[Campe]

I am all for competing arguments but I need something with some actual thought and substance behind it. The issue is that it reads as stream of consciousness and honestly, just really nitpicky. Neither is particularly helpful. Structure your argument. Don't just post just to post. It may take you some time but at least then one can see an actual argument. The nice thing about this site is that it will save your post if you don't submit it right away. You can come back to it.

 

[UssGlenn]

On the contrary, there must be few terms with more widespread definitions, that can take into account nearly any character in fiction. Everyone defines it to suit the character they want to fit it to, and so in the end, "they're a Mary Sue!" becomes almost a meaningless statement.

I think we are actually on the same page but from opposite directions. Anyone who doesn't want a character to be a Mary sue can trot out their definition which conveniently doesn't include said character. That's where my strict interpretation statement comes in. Regardless of what definition you use personally, it's immutable, so your favorite characters can't be counted as a Mary Sue.

 

[fireproof78]

I offered definitions. It seems no one wanted to define the term further.

 

[Campe]

I offered definitions. It seems no one wanted to define the term further.

I think your definitions as presented would work. What do others think?

 

[Spot261]

the term originated form a piece of Trek fan fiction. I don't remember it exactly, but the fact that a female character comes in and .. of course if the party gets imprisoned, she has a hairpin to get them out! if they confront an alien that speaks a certain language, of course she is the only one in the party that speaks it, and she will say that she went to college just to speak that language. It's not just what a character can do, it's that they are inserted into the story haphazardly, they remind the other characters what they can do (remember, i speak droid, i speak wookie..! Yeah i might have been fine with her doing either or both perhaps, but that they pointed out that she could do it while Finn and others around her could not just rubs it the wrong way.

We know where it came from, the story was called "A Trekkies' Tale", by the way.

We know what it has variously meant, which as several posters have mentioned has changed significantly down the years.

There is nothing wrong with Rey. her only flaws are that she sees the good in people HAHA. there is no hardship for her, no cross she has to bear..

Other than growing up an orphan on a hostile and violent desert planet.

No cross to bear then.

As a result she is a mary sue, as there is no room to grow (and despite what you keep saying Luke GREW as a character in those old films, both how he looked, how he acted, and how he thought) and there is nothing for her to learn,

How much growing did Luke manage to fit into the time between getting into that completely unfamiliar cockpit and getting to the Death Star?

As much as she underwent going from scavenging food to levitating half a mountains' worth of rocks and being the inspiration for the galaxy.

Seems like miraculous progress for both of them.

This is exemplified by the fact that at the end of the second film she shot down three TIES in one shot! YES and was in a great mood "I like this!" while at the same point in the original trilogy, Luke was barely alive, hanging upside down and calling for help, and his whole world had changed, Even if she earned all those traits (which she didn't) she is still all those things at base, and therefore is not a character..

Would synchronicity in the plots have helped? Should Rey have been hanging helplessly from the bottom of something at the end of TLJ? She seemed to be in some trouble a few hours earlier when she needed Kylo Ren to save her, perhaps the film should have ended then. Or perhaps ROTJ should have ended with Luke having the upper hand in his fight against Vader? (He did, by the way, on several occasions).

Could it simply be that they were two different films telling two different stories?

and maybe it would have been forgiven if the story for these films was better, but they don't justify reopening an old completed book, tearing out the last page, and adding additional chapters. We still know so little about what happened, why. Plus the idea of mary sue is the constant reminder form behind the scenes hints can factor into it, that we KNOW all KK is interested in is "strong female characters"

Forgiven?

Does it need forgiving?

Forgiven by whom?

 

[Spot261]

I offered definitions. It seems no one wanted to define the term further.

I think they hold. There's not going to be a consensus here let's be honest, but you've certainly got the flavour right.

 

[Campe]

Could it simply be that they were two different films telling two different stories?

See, that's one of my bigger issues with the complaints against the sequels. People complain that TFA was too much the same and TLJ was too different. Ultimately, how can one take someone's argument seriously when it seems as though they don't know what they want?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

How much growing did Luke manage to fit into the time between getting into that completely unfamiliar cockpit and getting to the Death Star?

they established that he was a pilot, they even show his T-16 in the film. also again trying to denegrate a film no one had a problem with for thirty years to defend a gawdawful film isn't really being honest

 

[Smellmet]

There is nothing wrong with Rey. her only flaws are that she sees the good in people HAHA. there is no hardship for her, no cross she has to bear.. she is not greedy

Neither is Luke.

prideful

Neither is Luke.

self-centered

Neither is Luke.

emotionally stunted

Neither is Luke.

emotionally unstable

Neither is Luke.

selfish

Neither is Luke.

reckless

Neither is Luke.

overconfident

Neither is Luke.

blinded by love

Neither is Luke.

womanizing

Neither is Luke.

stupid

Neither is Luke.

psychotic

Neither is Luke.

psychopathic

Neither is Luke.

self righteous

Neither is Luke.

narcissistic

Neither is Luke.

overly ambitious

Neither is Luke.

narrow minded

Neither is Luke.

morally ambiguous

Neither is Luke.

or arrogant

Neither is Luke.

She has no vendetta, addiction, superiority complex, bloodlust, jealousy, or lust for power

At this point I'm getting bored of splitting this post up so I'll just insert a quick 'Neither is Luke' in here too.

she is automatically incredible at every activity she does engage in

And pretty much every single one of these activities is explained clearly in the film, wether it's combat with the staff, the ability to fix things, pilot a craft - she shows all these abilities in the film before they are called on later on, and it is consistent with a character living off the land on a hostile planet like Jakku.

The only one that isn't fully explained is the force sensitivity, but I suspect The Rise of Skywalker is going to clear that one up for us.

As a result she is a mary sue, as there is no room to grow

Of course there is. There is plenty of her character that remains a mystery, and what her potential reaction is to uncovering said mystery.

This is exemplified by the fact that at the end of the second film she shot down three TIES in one shot! YES and was in a great mood "I like this!" while at the same point in the original trilogy, Luke was barely alive, hanging upside down and calling for help, and his whole world had changed

Different character in a different film. Or are you expecting their paths to just mirror each other, film for film - now that would be lazy writing, no?

and maybe it would have been forgiven if the story for these films was better, but they don't justify reopening an old completed book, tearing out the last page, and adding additional chapters

Literally the only thing you've said so far I remotely agree with.

We still know so little about what happened, why. Plus the idea of mary sue is the constant reminder form behind the scenes hints can factor into it, that we KNOW all KK is interested in is "strong female characters" There is nothing wrong with strong female characters at base, of course, but when we know that is aLL she is interested in even above the story, we know that she has been inserted to fulfill her wish for that and not really to tell us a good SW story

Just no. There are still strong male characters in the ST alongside Rey and you know it.

Go ahead and love them .. i love them too.. i mean what is not to love about strange aliens thinking BB-8 is a slot machine. What's not to love about the characters running around on alien space horse dogs.. or a alien lady screaming in center frame when she looks like a bunch of blobs stitched together? What's not to love about the fact that we had a character we just met mourning longer for another character we just met and who had no dialogue more than anyone, especially Luke, mourned for Han. Or that the story was a convoluted mess and tonal catastrophe. You all like it, so you will never see that Rey is a mary sue, and would rather denigrate films that have withstood the test of time and say "the older films had "blank" too, so it's ok" yadda yadda.. enjoy the garbage fires by Disney. For the record, while neither is perfect, i generally liked Rogue One and Solo.

We get it, you don't like the ST - but do you know what? I'm not a fan of it either, and prefer RO and Solo too so at least I'm ending this post on an agreed point.

 

[UssGlenn]

Other than growing up an orphan on a hostile and violent desert planet.

No cross to bear then.

It doesn't seem to have affected her personality in any negative way. Might as well have grown up on Naboo for all the emotional baggage it gave her. She's in denial that they are not coming back to get her but the abandonment issues that realization should cause, don't seem to cause trouble anywhere in the story.

 

[Spot261]

See, that's one of my bigger issues with the complaints against the sequels. People complain that TFA was too much the same and TLJ was too different. Ultimately, how can one take someone's argument seriously when it seems as though they don't know what they want?

I don't think anyone will ever now make a SW film that isn't seen as controversial by a very noisy minority.

There's an almost reflexive response to any new film as being an unwelcome outsider and the problem is that the people taking that stance seem to overestimate the extent to which their small circle really matters in the grand scheme of things or how triumphantly inane arguments about character arcs or development are when splitting hairs between the boy prodigy and the girl prodigy.

they established that he was a pilot, they even show his T-16 in the film. also again trying to denegrate a film no one had a problem with for thirty years to defend a gawdawful film isn't really being honest

Yes.

They saw his atmospheric flyer in the film. Pretty much the general kind that pretty much everyone in the SW universe uses to get about planetside. Perhaps a little sportier than most, perhaps the boy racer variety, but still basically a small civilian planetside transport.

So that would explain it then?

Does that explain how he managed to be a better pilot of a military space vessel than the elites of either side in a galactic war despite never having been in one before? Pretty much anyone who can fly a planetside civilian vehicle is automatically skilled in space borne military tech?

I drive a car, perhaps that means I'm also a fighter pilot?

They showed Rey on a hostile and violent desert planet where she grew up alone as an orphan. It doesn't strike you as reasonable that a talented person learning to survive through her formative years in such an environment would learn some of the relevant skills, as compared to a bored teenage farm hand who tinkered with his toy droids?

Ever notice baby Anakin seemingly becoming a pretty darn effective fighter pilot in TPM?

Seems there's a certain pedigree for this kind of stuff happening.

 

[Spot261]

Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



Neither is Luke.



At this point I'm getting bored of splitting this post up so I'll just insert a quick 'Neither is Luke' in here too.



And pretty much every single one of these activities is explained clearly in the film, wether it's combat with the staff, the ability to fix things, pilot a craft - she shows all these abilities in the film before they are called on later on, and it is consistent with a character living off the land on a hostile planet like Jakku.

The only one that isn't fully explained is the force sensitivity, but I suspect The Rise of Skywalker is going to clear that one up for us.




Of course there is. There is plenty of her character that remains a mystery, and what her potential reaction is to uncovering said mystery.



Different character in a different film. Or are you expecting their paths to just mirror each other, film for film - now that would be lazy writing, no?




Literally the only thing you've said so far I remotely agree with.




Just no. There are still strong male characters in the ST alongside Rey and you know it.



We get it, you don't like the ST - but do you know what? I'm not a fan of it either, and prefer RO and Solo too so at least I'm ending this post on an agreed point.

/thread.

 

[Campe]

they established that he was a pilot, they even show his T-16 in the film. also again trying to denegrate a film no one had a problem with for thirty years to defend a gawdawful film isn't really being honest

First, the original Star Wars is my favorite movie. I accept the fact that they take shortcuts because sometimes in film, you don't have to cut corners in order to get the story told.

Still...

• Please tell me in the movie where one suggests that a T-16 and an X-Wing are similar? In the supporting material, absolutely stated. But nowhere in the movie is it suggested.
• Please tell me in the movie where he flies in space prior to the end of the movie? He doesn't.
• Please tell me in the movie where he flies in space against hostile forces prior to the end of the movie?He doesn't.

We give Luke a pass on this stuff which is perfectly fine because, well, its a movie. Honestly though, why is this so different for Rey?

• One can assume that Luke never flew out of the atmosphere of Tatooine. Rey does actually say that she's a pilot but never flew out of the atmosphere of Jakku. What's the difference?
• Luke is able to not only survive impossible odds on his first combat flight but also destroy the biggest weapon the Empire has. Rey flies through the wreckage of a ship she's quite familiar with, having scavenged for years. (She says, in overlapping dialogue with Finn: "I've flown some ships but I've never left the planet!")

It doesn't seem to have affected her personality in any negative way. Might as well have grown up on Naboo for all the emotional baggage it gave her. She's in denial that they are not coming back to get her but the abandonment issues that realization should cause, don't seem to cause trouble anywhere in the story.

This is a criticism I can agree with. Apparently, she was a little harsher in the original version of the film (particularly the early scenes on the Falcon with Finn) and you can see a little of this with BB-8 but it didn't sit right so they softened her a little bit. I think having her be a little less friendly would have been a better choice. Make it a part of her arc as TFA went along that she became a better person.

 

[fireproof78]

/thread.

I'm inclined to agree.

It doesn't seem to have affected her personality in any negative way. Might as well have grown up on Naboo for all the emotional baggage it gave her. She's in denial that they are not coming back to get her but the abandonment issues that realization should cause, don't seem to cause trouble anywhere in the story.

I would disagree on this point. She is hung up on returning to Jakku, convinced that people will leave, yet desperate for them to stay. We see that with both Han and Finn. She is surprised that Finn came back, and when Han offers a job and a closer relationship, she pushes away.

Rey is very intense in her relationships. Not quite to clinical levels, but close enough for me to be concerned and think she needs therapy. So does Luke, by the way.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Luke's big flaw was impatience.. stated over and over again.. and that was a dark side trait.

Also you guys are telling me what I write is nonsense when most of you still believe Rian will have his trilogy? WTF