I'm not denying that legally you are right.. but when people say fan fiction.. they mean in terms of how the story works
Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?
- Thread starter fireproof78
- Start date
You seem to miss the fact that Disney has the right to do what they want because they've purchased Star Wars. They owe nothing to you. They owe nothing to me. They can choose to make the Benioff & Weiss trilogy completely CGI starring only purple elephants as Jedi. I for one don't care to see only purple elephants as Jedi. But its their right to do so if they so choose.
You don't like what Disney has done with Star Wars. Others don't either. However, the sequel trilogy has been EXTREMELY profitable. And that financial success suggests that they will continue down the road they're on. That The Rise of Skywalker has done extremely well in presales already is a good early indication that they are doing maybe what mass audiences want to see. The point being: The majority of people who go see a Star Wars films do not post on the internet. They do not watch YouTube videos. They watch the movies. They enjoy them or they don't. And hopefully they go see the next one. End of story.
As I have tried to suggest many times: Disney is a business. A business is there to be profitable. Even moreso, they have a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. They make the decisions based on data that neither you nor I do not have at our fingertips. I do not agree with every decision Disney has made with Star Wars but at the end of the day, I'm still entertained. And many others are as well.
I've never seen the term fan fiction used that way. I've seen people say that something feels like fan fiction, but that doesn't mean that it is.
She is a close friend of a main character, who shows up out of nowhere with a big reputation, and then goes out in a blaze of glory, saving the whole Resistance.
OK, I could actually see that argument almost working with Holdo. I still don't think she qualifies, but she's at least closer to one than Rey is.
She is a close friend of a main character, who shows up out of nowhere with a big reputation, and then goes out in a blaze of glory, saving the whole Resistance.
Yes, but like the Mary Sue term, the term fan fiction also has weight in its meaning. So, if you are going to use the term let's make sure we are all in agreement of its use.
Otherwise, this discussion is rather pointless since we might be talking past each other.
Source?
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
On the contrary, there must be few terms with more widespread definitions, that can take into account nearly any character in fiction. Everyone defines it to suit the character they want to fit it to, and so in the end, "they're a Mary Sue!" becomes almost a meaningless statement. For years, I was under the impression that the archetypal Mary Sue character was Wesley Crusher. The teenager who ends up in the bridge crew, doing everyone's job better than the experienced professionals do and wonderful at everything, but with one flaw-that's-not-a-flaw, he's just too clever to make friends. He's even got the name of his creator. But then I was told that Wesley definitely wasn't a Mary Sue the last time we discussed this. So I'm completely lost as to what one is and am suspicious that it is merely anyone we don't like.
This.
The vast majority of profits stemming from Star Wars movies aren't coming from "the fans". We're a big group as fanbases go, but peanuts compared to the numbers involved in making a movie sell. Most of the people buying tickets and possibly the odd bit of merchandise are people who have decided to go to the pictures then looked what's on and picked between SW, Fast and Furious, Terminator or the latest Tom Cruise offering. They're just movie goers for whom Star Wars is another large franchise which appears every now and then.
The idea tat Disney, as a private profit making concern who own that franchise, owe us anything or are beholden to any aspect of the subculture we have formed is nonsense and completely contrary to good business. They will make what they believes will turn a profit and if that happens to be what some of us like jolly good. If it isn't then we have no real grounds to complain, merely abstain from spending money in future.
As for Rey being a Mary Sue, I'm not sure we can definitively answer that as we don't have a definitive definition or criteria. We know where the term comes from, some of us even own copies of the famous short story, we know it loosely and variously means "excessively talented", "flawless" or "author insertion", but even that is way too abstract and lacking in substance to make the question truly meaningful.
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he real difference between Luke and Rey is the same as the difference between active and passive .. Luke, and characters like him, have clear goals (learn the force and save the princess, or fighting crime or avenging their puppy) , characters like Rey don't.. their goals are mired in "the right thing" in the vaguest way, and by definition she doesn't ASK for anything (even Daisy Ridley when talking about Rey, admits she never asked for anything) .. and while characters like Luke might be special because they are powerful, characters like Rey are powerful because they are special. That means that characters like Luke must continually prove themselves.. they gotta keep doing the awesome shit, and sometimes they will fail, sometimes they won't .. but in the process he is constantly creating who is he is.. the mary sue, by contrast, just is.. she is just awesome by virtue of existing .. and who she is often more important than what she does .. and even if a character like Luke has natural ability, we see them working to keep that ability, it is being tested all the time .. where as Rey and the other mary sue is just born amazing, is gifted the powers when she needs them (why was Rey able to perform a mind trick without having seen it performed?) , she is given powers by needs of the plot, or she was given all her powers in her tragic and unseen backstory, nullifying the need for us to question any of it.. or the need to work that hard for any of it on screen. Even the male characters like Harry Potter than lean toward these traits, there is still a sense that they have many conflicts to overcome, goals that are specific that they want to accomplish, a sense of agency in their own story, Rey like characters will often appear weak and vulnerable when.. as far as the story goes, they are invincible. Take Han in Disney Solo movie, within two minutes of the film and after the character is established, he had three clear goals (to leave Corrilia, to get a ship of his own, and to be with the girl) where as Rey.. eh wants to leave, except she wants to stay and wait for her parents, yet she knows they aren';t coming back, and she doesn't really want to help, and she doens't really want to take Solo's job offer, and yet we know she will do the right thing despite the fact there is no reason considering her background for her to do it. Oh and about that Han solo movie, that three year time jump early on.. implies that he had some kind of training ..
yes.. actual training
I'm not saying that Luke is a super deep character.. it is a heros' journey.. a formula that might be as old as the hills, but popular culture really needed a new take on it when it came out. He was peppered with more complexity as the story went on.. peppered.. like sprinkled,, they didn't really radically change the simplistic aspects of his character too much.. unlike TLJ which decided "let's make Luke an asshole and totally different and fool people into thinking he is the same character because thirty years later he COULD be like that, but let's not earn it through real storytelling"..
Unlike, of course, Luke who destroyed the Death Star by making an impossible torpedo shot whilst piloting a fighter against the Empires' best despite never having even been in space prior to a few days previous?
Luke who after a couple of days' training managed to give Vader a serious fight and then beat him on the rematch?
Luke who after a couple of days' training managed to give Vader a serious fight and then beat him on the rematch?
actually the impossible torpedo shot was the point of the movie.. and maybe you missed that.. maybe you missed talking earlier. "don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." but whatever. You can try to smear a classic movie to defend a crappy modern one with a garbage fire script. Good on you!
yeah that was the point of the story and was hinted at by Vader .. are you dence .. maybe you missed that.
Either they’re both (Rey, Luke) “Mary Sue’s”, or neither are. They both pull off amazing feats with little to no training.
you are an idiot. He had a little training,. but putting the faith in the shot WAS the beginning of him embracing the Force and in some ways the beginning of his journey to discover the Force. it's classic storytelling, not agenda driven garbage sewage
he real difference between Luke and Rey is the same as the difference between active and passive .. Luke, and characters like him, have clear goals (learn the force and save the princess, or fighting crime or avenging their puppy) , characters like Rey don't.. their goals are mired in "the right thing" in the vaguest way, and by definition she doesn't ASK for anything (even Daisy Ridley when talking about Rey, admits she never asked for anything) .. and while characters like Luke might be special because they are powerful, characters like Rey are powerful because they are special. That means that characters like Luke must continually prove themselves.. they gotta keep doing the awesome shit, and sometimes they will fail, sometimes they won't .. but in the process he is constantly creating who is he is.. the mary sue, by contrast, just is.. she is just awesome by virtue of existing .. and who she is often more important than what she does .. and even if a character like Luke has natural ability, we see them working to keep that ability, it is being tested all the time .. where as Rey and the other mary sue is just born amazing, is gifted the powers when she needs them (why was Rey able to perform a mind trick without having seen it performed?) , she is given powers by needs of the plot, or she was given all her powers in her tragic and unseen backstory, nullifying the need for us to question any of it.. or the need to work that hard for any of it on screen. Even the male characters like Harry Potter than lean toward these traits, there is still a sense that they have many conflicts to overcome, goals that are specific that they want to accomplish, a sense of agency in their own story, Rey like characters will often appear weak and vulnerable when.. as far as the story goes, they are invincible. Take Han in Disney Solo movie, within two minutes of the film and after the character is established, he had three clear goals (to leave Corrilia, to get a ship of his own, and to be with the girl) where as Rey.. eh wants to leave, except she wants to stay and wait for her parents, yet she knows they aren';t coming back, and she doesn't really want to help, and she doens't really want to take Solo's job offer, and yet we know she will do the right thing despite the fact there is no reason considering her background for her to do it. Oh and about that Han solo movie, that three year time jump early on.. implies that he had some kind of training ..
yes.. actual training
I'm not saying that Luke is a super deep character.. it is a heros' journey.. a formula that might be as old as the hills, but popular culture really needed a new take on it when it came out. He was peppered with more complexity as the story went on.. peppered.. like sprinkled,, they didn't really radically change the simplistic aspects of his character too much.. unlike TLJ which decided "let's make Luke an asshole and totally different and fool people into thinking he is the same character because thirty years later he COULD be like that, but let's not earn it through real storytelling"..
You’re still trying to tap dance around both doing incredible feats with little to no training.
