Poll Is Q Right About Troi?

[Armus]

Troi can be very annoying. I like how Picard handles Troi in "We'll Always Have Paris".

TROI: Captain? Excuse me.
PICARD: Yes, what is it, Counsellor?
TROI: I think you would prefer to discuss this in private.
PICARD: That's not necessary. Go on.
TROI: When Professor Manheim's name was mentioned, you reacted with intense emotion.
PICARD: Yes. Please get to the point.
TROI: I don't want to interfere with your personal life, but unresolved strong emotion can affect judgement.
PICARD: Well, thank you for your concern.

 

[Mojochi]

Troi can be very annoying. I like how Picard handles Troi in "We'll Always Have Paris".

TROI: Captain? Excuse me.
PICARD: Yes, what is it, Counsellor?
TROI: I think you would prefer to discuss this in private.
PICARD: That's not necessary. Go on.
TROI: When Professor Manheim's name was mentioned, you reacted with intense emotion.
PICARD: Yes. Please get to the point.
TROI: I don't want to interfere with your personal life, but unresolved strong emotion can affect judgement.
PICARD: Well, thank you for your concern.

Yup. I kind of liked how he showed her the door in The Chase as well. I can't be the only one who finds it satisfying when she gets shut down with that crap, & that means that there must be some part of us that knows it's just a little too invasive and presumptuous to think that just because you have a glimpse into someone's psyche, that you can presume to understand what it means to be them, feel what they're feeling, or assess what's best for them. that's a lot of complex variables to factor from a person who's best offering on some days is "He's hiding something" lol

 

[Greysun]

I thought this would be about Q's comment from All Good Things...
Q: "Listening to Counselor Troi's pedantic psychobabble."
Yep, I'm on board with that.
As far as her sensing something in Q and blurting it out, that's the kind of thing Troi used to criticize her mother for. On the other hand, I supposed she's trying to keep Picard informed - confirming that Q seems to have a human emotional presence where he didn't before.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Lwaxana does it just to be provocative - to needle people. She's a troll.

Deanna, on the other hand, offers her insight when they need every advantage in battle or need to understand someone's frame of mind going into an assignment, whether they need to take a step back or not.

 

[Devilpogostick]

By all means, Troi is with a tight knit crew in which her abilities do offer some insight since the others are not as offended with her using it. I mean...While I do think she's kinda running on hunches, blurt out things that comes as rather unprofessional or just unnecessary in my personal opinion, she's doing it for the crew's sake if they like it or not. A tad intrusive but you can kinda see the reasoning after some thought.

The thing with O'Brien was kinda mean but she doesn't exactly know much about Miles past. While I agree that Miles is not the kind to do harm to people because he didn't like them, at the very least that moment did kick start his development to really come to terms with it.

The Jellico thing again was unprofessional but it was mainly a sort of between co-workers Talking about their boss thing. Course, telling it to Riker wasn’t exactly the best action though frankly that's Riker for ya for not making his growing disdain more noticeable until he got dismissed.

And a bit off topic....Yeah, Troi crashing the Enterprise is a big mark against her but come on, a lot of the Bridge Crew were kinda dropping competent points there (really, if they had just mentioned something like those disruptors/torpedoes knocked down most of our weapons etc, I would accept it. Big nope, fire once and flee while we resort to crazy solutions!)

 

[Mojochi]

Lwaxana does it just to be provocative - to needle people. She's a troll.

She's imho a horrible person, because she has actually stated things that were untrue, especially about Picard, simply becuase there weren't enough people in the room who could dispute it. Maybe it's just poking fun, but it's akin to bullying

The thing with O'Brien was kinda mean but she doesn't exactly know much about Miles past. While I agree that Miles is not the kind to do harm to people because he didn't like them, at the very least that moment did kick start his development to really come to terms with it.

I honestly don't think it did. He still mouthed off in the turbo lift. I think THAT moment is the real turning point of him reflecting on his feelings. When he kind of lies to himself about it at dinner with Keiko, he starts that introspective journey. Maybe he reflects on that exchange with Troi too, but it still doesn't seem essential enough to justify how she does this stuff to people imho

 

[Devilpogostick]

I honestly don't think it did. He still mouthed off in the turbo lift. I think THAT moment is the real turning point of him reflecting on his feelings. When he kind of lies to himself about it at dinner with Keiko, he starts that introspective journey. Maybe he reflects on that exchange with Troi too, but it still doesn't seem essential enough to justify how she does this stuff to people imho

I can see that. Maybe I meant that event may have at least put it into thought while the dinner with his wife firmly cemented that he needs to reflect on that a lot more than he thought. But the event with Troi worked mostly for viewers to see he doesn't have a high opinion on Cardassians and how that is not a good thing. Otherwise, we'd be wondering what stick was up his ass. XD

Now I would say its the circumstances of the fragile ceasefire between Federation and Cardassians that made Troi give that really condescending look to avoid something (even if it wasn't going to lead to anything but glares, best to be safe I guess) that would give a pretty bad impression at the get go. Otherwise, if she did that to everyone whose having an issue not related to that sort of situation...I'd probably turn the other direction if I ran into her. Haha.

But yeah, I do think she has something of standards...Cause if not, Troi would be near impossible to work with.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

If she doesn't respond in a way that leaves a lasting impression on him, he might not check his personal opinions at the door so easily. It's being "cruel" to be kind, and ultimately merciful. If he gets into a conflict with one of the Cardassians, he could be injured or even killed. Better to suffer a withering glance than wind up being put back together in sickbay.

OT I wonder if that's how he had his shoulder dislocated the first time?

 

[Shikarnov]

And a bit off topic....Yeah, Troi crashing the Enterprise is a big mark against her but come on, a lot of the Bridge Crew were kinda dropping competent points there (really, if they had just mentioned something like those disruptors/torpedoes knocked down most of our weapons etc, I would accept it. Big nope, fire once and flee while we resort to crazy solutions!)

That always irritated me as well. I mean, the Enterprise was practically a mobile battlestation. Overwhelm the bird-of-prey with sheer firepower; or at least keep them busy so they're constantly evading and can't fire so many penetrating shots. Or, I don't know, modulate the shield frequencies like we've seen done in other instances. But then the writers wouldn't be able to crash the saucer -- which they've always wanted to do -- and replace the Big D with its hideous successor.

 

[Mojochi]

I can see that. Maybe I meant that event may have at least put it into thought while the dinner with his wife firmly cemented that he needs to reflect on that a lot more than he thought. But the event with Troi worked mostly for viewers to see he doesn't have a high opinion on Cardassians and how that is not a good thing. Otherwise, we'd be wondering what stick was up his ass. XD

Now I would say its the circumstances of the fragile ceasefire between Federation and Cardassians that made Troi give that really condescending look to avoid something (even if it wasn't going to lead to anything but glares, best to be safe I guess) that would give a pretty bad impression at the get go. Otherwise, if she did that to everyone whose having an issue not related to that sort of situation...I'd probably turn the other direction if I ran into her. Haha.

But yeah, I do think she has something of standards...Cause if not, Troi would be near impossible to work with.

That is exactly right. They did it specifically to highlight the plot point for the audience, which is a very poor use of her character (Not that that's something new for them lol) They also had a remark earlier from Picard to her, about watching the crew, because of the overall current attitude on board, of people possibly harboring bad feelings. Which is why if we say this is a duty she's fulfilling, then what she did wasn't enough. She needed to say something, or do nothing at all. He ended up looking away. That's not addressing it. He would end up doing that bit for himself later. So the stare down was either inappropriate or it's insufficient. Plus, she ends up not factoring into the episode at all after that. That whole episode makes her character look like crap imho

 

[Prax]

She sort of is acting as the "thought police" in The Wounded. In the opening sequence, Picard is the bridge about an encounter he had with Cardassians while captaining the Stargaizer, And Worf says "__Insert Species__ are without honor."

Deanna scolds Worf about his attitude, then Picard and Riker trade glances and chuckle to themselves. Was "allies" the proper term here? The Federation also has treaties with the Romulans, but Troy never scolds Worf when he calls them dishonorable.

I think we all know O'brien well enough at this point to try and speculate on what exactly he may have been thinking. He doesn't trust them. He may be repulsed by them, but there's an irony here. Worf and O'brien were right! The Cardassians really were without honor, and not to be trusted. Does the Federation really think they can win the Cardie's friendship, and get them to honor their treaty by being polite and welcoming? I understand they were desperate to avoid further warfare, but they might just be seen as weak.

I don't think Deanna's look was all that severe after actually watching the scene. It's really not clear whether she was sensing his thoughts; or was scolding him for acting like a jerk to the three Cardassians just beamed aboard.

If she did sense something from him, she may have been caught off guard and then tried to get a better sense of what she felt. After he looks down at the floor, she does also. So maybe she was a little embarrassed over what happened. It's hard to tell.

 

[Plutodawn]

Was certainly rude.

Rude isn't just a emotion (one can accidently do it, hence the attempts to apologize), it's a circumstance that causes friction.

Take her self righteous attitude with O'Brien, which O'Brien was completely and reasonably justified to have- even the Cardassians would think it rational enough for a war veteran who faced off against them, and move her circumstantially away from O'Brien and the enterprise, and set her.... hmmmm.... on DS9 right after Garak informs Sisko he was intact behind the assassination of the Romulan, just as Dianna was walking by..... shocked as hell at the very unFederation emotions coming from the Captain, barging in cause it's "her job", catching enough of the conversation that she realizes she just stumbled in on some galactic high crimes.... and gives a twisted face look half horrified, half paniced that says " I'm Telling".

Man.... 30 minutes later Sisko be walking in front of Quarks with Odo, and you'll see Troi's stupid frozen head smack into the window from the outside, floating in space, with Sisko staring in disbelief and Garak walking out of his shop while people are screaming, holding cloth and thread, looking up.

That's what happens to rude people like Troi who don't get that butting in, under ever more tense escalating circumstance, can go very very wrong.

As far as I know, Picard never faked a cause of war, but Picard and his crew as the flagship was in a variety of nearly as bad circumstance. Wars happen, emotions happen, she needs to have a healthy respect for hatred and disgust, even homicidal rage at times, cause soldiers do kill from time to time, and being a pure stoic or angered inspired when your told to fire doesn't matter- you fire, if need be kill, hopefully the enemy dies. Perfectly reasonable for hatred, disgust, mistrust to take root- that's emperical data inspiring that, personal experience.... "These people are tricky". I think the Cardassians would take it as a compliment, a acute observation had they known for certain.

It is only a issue if it effects the pragmatic work ethic and professionalism O'Brien has to project. It didn't, do she best keep her opinions to herself. What is he gonna say if she demanded a meeting? That he hates them, doesn't give a crap about her opinion, cause that's stems from his experiences, his dead comrades, from Cardassians being unapologetic about it all. He is perfectly right to say rank aside, she can shove her breathing exercises up her butt, he is perfectly healthy considering standard expectations for someone of his experiences, and Starfleet is okay having him around, has intact thousands just like him, hating the Cardassians, yet doing their job. Doubt he wants to waste his time talking, needs to go fix things.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I assume Troi can block out the emotions of others when she wants, though suspect concentration and effort would be needed on her part--seeing as how Betazoids telepathy is a natural sense they have, it'd be like asking a human to suspend their sense of smell--but with some training and discipline it's probably do-able. That being said, I doubt she'd be able to keep it up all the time so times when faced with very strong emotions (such as from an omnipotent being) or her concentration slips (whilst enjoying the music of a concert) then she'd let in the private thoughts and feelings of those around her--even if she hadn't intended too.

Also with the likes of Q, who had shown to be at times hostile and always a nuisance, she would most likely actively scan him so as to help advise Picard to ensure the crew is kept as safe as possible from whatever shenanigans he's up to.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

seeing as how Betazoids telepathy is a natural sense they have, it'd be like asking a human to suspend their sense of smell

If you suddenly came upon a pile of fresh dog doo, wouldn't you find it hard not to wince? If you stepped on a Lego in bare feet, wouldn't you react? You might be able to hold in a yell, but you'll still feel the pain. Everybody can't control themselves perfectly all the time.

 

[Prax]

If you stepped on a Lego in bare feet

...just awful

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

^ There is no pain like it! lol

 

[Prax]

No offence to Lego® of course, as they are the coolest thing since sliced bread!

 

[Paradise City]

Well, Betazeds are a bit like Changelings. Good ideas, fruitful for stories but not that well thought through. Odo becoming a mouse, a rock or even a cloud and this would fool sensors? It's virtually an omnipotent power!

As for Betazeds...the idea of an influx of Betazeds into Starfleet. Starfleet would have to rely on each one of them to police themselves and restrain themselves from accessing sensitive info for example. Starfleet would have to ensure they were all of good character. Any dodgy Betazed that slipped through the net would cause mayhem.

Betazeds really do challenge notions of privacy in the 24th century. It's difficult to see how anyone anyway committed to their own privacy could behave socially functionally around Betazeds. There's a bit of utopian thing behind the concept, that we are supposed to be so unconcerned with privacy that everybody is cool around them. They aren't all nice either - like any population they have criminal types. Lon Suder in Voyager and Admiral Satie's attack-dog in The Drumhead who was a very authoritarian figure and quite happy in stitching everyone up in a frenzy of Cosmic McCarthyism. Apparently he was a long term aide to Satie.

As for Troi I like the character well enough. But she just seemed to be at a loose end most of the time. An obviously dodgy lookin' alien with a shifty expression would appear on-screen, then Picard would turn to her and she'd say: "he's hiding something". Yeah? In other news, space is dark, Counce.

On the occasions Troi was tested though Sirtis played it well. The Loss has an excellent performance from her. I like the episodes were she gets snippy with the patients, haha.

O'Brien in The Wounded always reminds me alot of Kirk in TUC. As in someone going fom a passionste distaste to some sort of position of redemption.

 

[flandry84]

And in her role of counsellor one would assume that Troi would have a fairly good knowledge of crew recordsGarak referred to Miles as "the hero of Setlik 3" indicating that O'Brien's war service was moderately renowned.
For him to then have a visceral reaction to the Cardassian shouldn't be a shock to anyone.

Y'know,for such a simple scene that had almost passed me by,this thread has been very interesting. Thanks guys!

 

[Mojochi]

If you suddenly came upon a pile of fresh dog doo, wouldn't you find it hard not to wince? If you stepped on a Lego in bare feet, wouldn't you react? You might be able to hold in a yell, but you'll still feel the pain. Everybody can't control themselves perfectly all the time.

But if you lived around dog doo all day long. If it was your job to daily step on legos, you'd eventually develop a tolerance. That's all I'm saying, not that she shouldn't notice or even be caught off guard by it, but that she should be well tempered enough to make better decisions in how she reacts

Y'know, for such a simple scene that had almost passed me by, this thread has been very interesting. Thanks guys!

Thank you too. I actually hadn't thought this thread would take off, because of how superfluous that scene is & the others that have been brought up. Most of my points have been about very subtle character aspects, which we often overlook, because for the most part, we like Troi

Thank you also for reminding me about Garak's reference. It does go to show, that at least among Cardassian military & likely Starfleet too, his service there is probably pretty well known. It's a shame there wasn't enough time in the episode to feature other crew members who might also feel similarly to O'Brien. The nature of the episode sort of singles him out, like he's an anomaly, when from other comments in the episode, it seems it might have very well been quite common for others aboard to have feelings like his during that mission