Is promotion "Sometimes" a bad thing?

[Captain pl1ngpl0ng]

i DONT want to be a moderator!.... please!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 

[The Wormhole]

Companies need to start looking outside if the only applicant is that type of person.
Those are the type of people who should be BANNED from getting into those positions, they should be black listed because of those reasons.

Unfortunately, that's not really a practical option. By default, you can only give a job to someone who wants it. If only those type of people want the job, they're the ones who end up getting getting it. The only alternative is to force a promotion onto someone who doesn't want it, and in that case that person isn't going to bother putting any effort into it.

If Riker took that early Captaincy offer, he would've been one of the dead amongst Wolf 359.

Maybe if he accepted command of the Melbourne. But he was offered two other commands before that. Granted, the Drake also ended up destroyed, but we have no indication the Aires was destroyed.

I'm glad StarFleet doesn't have the "up or out" policy, I personally think it's dumb.
If you're talented at your job, and don't feel like you're ready to be promoted or want the responsibility of the promotion yet, you shouldn't be forced to.

Okay, but what about talented people in the lower ranks who both desire promotion and could excel at a higher rank? How is it fair that they're stuck in their lower rank because those above them are staying where they're at refusing to accept promotion or leave?

But Spock served under Kirk for how long?

Apples and oranges. Kirk and Spock actually do advance in their careers by the time the TOS movies come along.

Same with Kira Nerys & Sisko

Kira wasn't constantly turning down promotion offers over the course of DS9.

Same with T'Pol & Archer (But she even quit her Vulcan posting to accept one under StarFleet)

Actually, T'Pol resigned her Vulcan commission in protest of her government's stance regarding assisting Earth against the Xindi and was later given a Starfleet commission in recognition of her actions in the Xindi affair.

 

[thribs]

Well they say you get promoted to one level above your ability. Probably why the Majority of admirals Are awful

 

[FormerLurker]

Companies need to start looking outside if the only applicant is that type of person.
Those are the type of people who should be BANNED from getting into those positions, they should be black listed because of those reasons.

Unfortunately, that's not really a practical option. By default, you can only give a job to someone who wants it. If only those type of people want the job, they're the ones who end up getting getting it. The only alternative is to force a promotion onto someone who doesn't want it, and in that case that person isn't going to bother putting any effort into it

You quoted it, but I think you didn't read the first sentence of what KamenRiderBlade said. You're still suggesting they hire and/or promote from within, while he said they need to go outside the company. The only time that's impractical is in the military. I've been in jobs where they hired outside because the upper management didn't want the "Oooh, pick me, pick me!" types to get the job because they knew what it would do to morale.

Maybe if he accepted command of the Melbourne. But he was offered two other commands before that. Granted, the Drake also ended up destroyed, but we have no indication the Aires was destroyed.

They made a point in the script as the D flew through the Starfleet slaughterhouse to have Shelby identify ships as they went by, saying "The Aries, the Drake, the Kyushu...the Melbourne." Every single ship Riker had been offered for the last two years, destroyed at Wolf 359.

 

[BillJ]

They made a point in the script as the D flew through the Starfleet slaughterhouse to have Shelby identify ships as they went by, saying "The Aries, the Drake, the Kyushu...the Melbourne." Every single ship Riker had been offered for the last two years, destroyed at Wolf 359.

Quite a trick with the Drake, considering it was destroyed prior to “The Arsenal of Freedom”.

 

[The Wormhole]

You quoted it, but I think you didn't read the first sentence of what KamenRiderBlade said. You're still suggesting they hire and/or promote from within, while he said they need to go outside the company.

Looking for someone outside the company isn't really a better option, since in those cases that usually results in friends of senior managers being hired.

They made a point in the script as the D flew through the Starfleet slaughterhouse to have Shelby identify ships as they went by, saying "The Aries, the Drake, the Kyushu...the Melbourne." Every single ship Riker had been offered for the last two years, destroyed at Wolf 359.

Are you referring to an earlier draft of the script? Because in the version that aired the ships Shelby identifies are the Tolstoy, Kyushu and the Melbourne. It'd be damned odd if the script included the Drake, given it was already destroyed in The Arsenal of Freedom.

 

[FormerLurker]

I was going by memory. I haven't seen it in a long time, but I do know it was every ship Riker had been offered since the second season.

And Arsenal of Freedom was first season.

 

[BillJ]

I was going by memory. I haven't seen it in a long time, but I do know it was every ship Riker had been offered since the second season.

And Arsenal of Freedom was first season.

I don’t remember him being offered the Kyushu?

 

[FormerLurker]

I don't either, but I haven't seen it in a long time. It may have been a ship thrown in to add to the carnage listed, or it may have been one of the first ships he turned down. They didn't make a big deal out of the first couple, just the ones in third season.

 

[BillJ]

...just the ones in third season.

Just the one. The Melbourne is the only command I remember him being offered in the third season.

It seems he was offered three ships since signing on to the Enterprise...

This is the third time we've pulled out the captain's chair for Riker. He just won't sit down.

The Drake, Aries and Melbourne.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/174.htm

 

[Galaxy Child]

There is a thing called the Peter principle. "It is a concept developed by Laurence J. Peter, which states that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle
Most inept bosses seem to be the product of this phenomena.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So what? Is his life worth more than those others who died doing their duty?

I value Riker / Jonathon Frake's life over many. Call me Biased towards Jonathon Frakes or other 1st officers I get to see on TV alot that I like.

Okay, but what about talented people in the lower ranks who both desire promotion and could excel at a higher rank? How is it fair that they're stuck in their lower rank because those above them are staying where they're at refusing to accept promotion or leave?

Unless you're the Department Chief or Department Chief's XO, there is no reason why you can't continue your promotion upwards. The only really limited number of slots seem to be "Department Heads". The number of slots for those serving underneath seem to be plenty.

And if a position opens up on a new PlanetaryBase / StarBase / StarShip where you can get a promotion as well, then so be it. Just move off your current posting. It wouldn't be the first time in StarFleet where officers change posts for a promotion while in the middle of serving on a existing tour on the current posting.

The only time that's impractical is in the military.

StarFleet is a very large organization with plenty of officers at every level.
You can eventually pick from quite a large pool of potential candidates just like Jean Luc Picard went through alot of 1st Officer candidates before he chose Riker.

Looking for someone outside the company isn't really a better option, since in those cases that usually results in friends of senior managers being hired.

That's where you have to be careful of "Nepotism" in the hiring process and definitely screen to BLOCK the effects of "Nepotism".
Any dishonesty about relationships between hiree's and existing staff should auto DQ the candidate.

 

[BillJ]

I value Riker / Jonathon Frake's life over many. Call me Biased towards Jonathon Frakes or other 1st officers I get to see on TV alot that I like.

You end up being blocked. So you never know if you'd get characters you like or love more. In my experience, variety is a good thing.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You end up being blocked. So you never know if you'd get characters you like or love more. In my experience, variety is a good thing.

Maybe, at the end of the day, it's up to the casting crew and ShowRunners to depict that change.

I liked it when they changed Captains in B5. I though John Sheridan was better than Jeffrey Sinclair.

 

[fireproof78]

You end up being blocked. So you never know if you'd get characters you like or love more. In my experience, variety is a good thing.

Indeed, yes. And I like the idea of characters being promoted and moving on. Gives a much better sense of acknowledging that these characters are people living within their world.

Even MASH promoted Klinger.

 

[Sgt_G]

Even MASH promoted Klinger.

I guess that puts MASH / Corporal Klinger ahead of Voyager / Ensign Kim.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess that puts MASH / Corporal Klinger ahead of Voyager / Ensign Kim.

He ended as a sergeant. So, yes, he still advanced more than Ensign Kim.

 

[J.T.B.]

All the buck sergeant stripes on MASH are wrong, BTW. During the Korea period, corporals wore two stripes and sergeants four (three chevrons and a rocker), skipping the three stripe insignia.

 

[fireproof78]

All the buck sergeant stripes on MASH are wrong, BTW. During the Korea period, corporals wore two stripes and sergeants four (three chevrons and a rocker), skipping the three stripe insignia.

Tracking MASH insignia and patches was a fool's errand. I tried. It hurt.

 

[Tenacity]

Not being promoted is sometimes a bad thing too....

You'll get T'Boz job soon enough, be patient