Could there be certain cases where being promoted a bad thing for you as a individual?
Will this depend on each person's aspirations and goals?
Or are some ranks just crappy to be in?
Anybody with IRL military experience, please chime in!
Is promotion "Sometimes" a bad thing?
- Thread starter Kamen Rider Blade
- Start date
Could there be certain cases where being promoted a bad thing for you as a individual?
Will this depend on each person's aspirations and goals?
Or are some ranks just crappy to be in?
Anybody with IRL military experience, please chime in!
There's not just promoting someone to a job they don't want... there's also the ever-present promoting someone to their level of incompetence. They do a good job, they get promoted, and then they keep getting promoted until they hit the job they can't do. Then they can't go any further, so they're stuck in that incompetent rut forever. Or until they're let go.
I went to Korea for a year as a TSgt. I was supposed to take over as the NCOIC of my old section when I returned home, but I was selected for MSgt and thus promoted myself out of the job. As they say, when one door closes, often another opens. I was able to talk my way into a job that I loved, a job I couldn't have as a TSgt.
I've had / seen a couple people put in charge that had no business being a boss. They were "book smart" and made rank they weren't qualified to wear. I've also know people who would have been a great boss, but they were "book dumb" and couldn't test well enough to make the rank they deserved.
I've had / seen a couple people put in charge that had no business being a boss. They were "book smart" and made rank they weren't qualified to wear. I've also know people who would have been a great boss, but they were "book dumb" and couldn't test well enough to make the rank they deserved.
Simple fact of the matter is, not everyone is cut out to be in charge, and not everyone wants to be in charge. There are people who are only interested in authority positions to suit their own ego, for the status, or the paycheck. These people are not the type you want in a position of authority, but often times it's unavoidable. Then there are people who know their job extremely well, arguably better than their boss, but they don't seek promotions, usually because they are aware of their own limits, know they lack any kind of leadership ability and/or see a position of responsibility as a source of misery they neither want or need.
The place where I work is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Many managers are actually stepping down from management or even leaving the company because they can't handle the stress of management, and many employees are actively avoiding management positions, because they see the stress and misery it's causing their managers and don't want any part of that. As a result, the only ones who do seek management are the ones the larger paycheck, the status of having a title and want their egos stroked. And they get the jobs exactly because they're the only ones expressing an interest in the jobs.
In a military setting, there's usually an "up or out" policy. Basically, you have to move up the rank ladder to clear the lower ranks for others to move up and to avoid becoming complacent in a job you've been doing for a long time. The only alternative to moving up is to leave. Starfleet apparently doesn't have such a policy based on officers we've seen go years without promotion. The fact that Riker was able to spend almost twenty years as an XO even during times when we know experienced Captains were needed like in the aftermath of Wolf 359 or during the Dominion War. Likewise, Picard spent something like fifty years as a Captain, and in an alternate timeline only achieved one promotion after forty years of service.
The place where I work is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Many managers are actually stepping down from management or even leaving the company because they can't handle the stress of management, and many employees are actively avoiding management positions, because they see the stress and misery it's causing their managers and don't want any part of that. As a result, the only ones who do seek management are the ones the larger paycheck, the status of having a title and want their egos stroked. And they get the jobs exactly because they're the only ones expressing an interest in the jobs.
In a military setting, there's usually an "up or out" policy. Basically, you have to move up the rank ladder to clear the lower ranks for others to move up and to avoid becoming complacent in a job you've been doing for a long time. The only alternative to moving up is to leave. Starfleet apparently doesn't have such a policy based on officers we've seen go years without promotion. The fact that Riker was able to spend almost twenty years as an XO even during times when we know experienced Captains were needed like in the aftermath of Wolf 359 or during the Dominion War. Likewise, Picard spent something like fifty years as a Captain, and in an alternate timeline only achieved one promotion after forty years of service.
To be honest with myself, I didn't want the job as NCOIC (non-commissioned officer in-charge) of my old section. I didn't think I was ready, or ever would be ready, to supervise that many people. Yes, I had been a supervisor of one or two people several times, but had never managed twenty-plus personnel. The last five years I was in uniform, I did not supervise anyone, but rather managed multi-million dollar projects. It was stressful, but I didn't lie awake at night worrying about my troops and their families.
Companies need to start looking outside if the only applicant is that type of person.
Those are the type of people who should be BANNED from getting into those positions, they should be black listed because of those reasons.
You wonder why Japan isn't the Electronic Power House it once was, it's because of the "up or out" and "Forced Retirement" policies. It's fundamentally dumb and causes you to lose valuable talent.
That kind of corporate mentality along with "Forced Retirement at age ___" is what cost the Japanese to lose alot of their most talented engineers to Samsung/LG/ Chinese companies.
That's why South Korea is such a technical power house.
If Riker took that early Captaincy offer, he would've been one of the dead amongst Wolf 359.
And Riker's relationship with Picard wouldn't be as deep as it is now.
I'm glad StarFleet doesn't have the "up or out" policy, I personally think it's dumb.
If you're talented at your job, and don't feel like you're ready to be promoted or want the responsibility of the promotion yet, you shouldn't be forced to.
Look how long Picard spent as Captain before he went to Admiral.
He contributed ALOT as Captain.
Look at Janeway, she wanted that Admiral's seat so much after Voyager, she got 3 pips as Vice-Admiral in short order.
Janeway returns in 2378
In 2379, she orders Picard to the Romulan Homeworld to meet Shinzon.
In 1 year, she goes from Captain to 3-pip Vice Admiral?
WTF?
I can understand Janeway going to Lower Rear Admiral (1 pip equivalent) for Flag officer after debriefing and celebrating all her accomplishments of getting Voyager home with all the crazy accomplishments and tech.
But 3 Flag Officer pips in 1 year?
That leads me to conclude that Janeway is quite the rank climber and got to that position by:
she gained alot of dirt on somebody and got her many level promotion that she wanted.
or
she slept her way up the admiralty and got her promotions.
or
she had huge UFP public / UFP politician backing to fast track her up the ranks to help with public image due to her celebrity status from Voyager.
Nobody is denying Kate Mulgrew at that time was quite attractive.
There was no shortage of people who had the hots for Kate Mulgrew at that time.
We all know sometimes Captains can use their power of seduction for personal gain.
We all just have to look at Gabriel Lorca sleeping with Vice Admiral Katrina Cornwell to keep hold of the USS Discovery.
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Maybe. Maybe not. One isn't supposed to be rejecting assignments because there might be danger in the future. He also had a chance to captain the Aries ("The Icarus Factor") and be on a mission of exploration that he turned down.
And? There would be other relationships that would form for both men if they went their separate ways, and the franchise might be better for it if Berman/Paramount had the strength to treat the Enterprise and its crew a bit more realistic. Riker squatting on the XO position for twenty years prevents other officers who deserve advancement from getting it.
The Will Riker character had ran its course by "The Best of Both Worlds", there was nothing left for him to accomplish on the Enterprise. It actually got to be a bit silly as Patrick Stewart started wanting to do more with the Picard character.
Part of the premise of TMP was that Kirk disliked his promotion and used the emergency to captain the Enterprise once more.
By the way, nothing in LDS has been as silly as Kirk's behavior in TMP was implausibly irresponsible. Kirk was shown botching the wormhole emergency for dramatic effect, but, speaking of silly, Kirk's failure to understand the refit when it came to the operation of the ship's primary weapons when facing an existential threat (the cloud) was downright silly.
By the way, nothing in LDS has been as silly as Kirk's behavior in TMP was implausibly irresponsible. Kirk was shown botching the wormhole emergency for dramatic effect, but, speaking of silly, Kirk's failure to understand the refit when it came to the operation of the ship's primary weapons when facing an existential threat (the cloud) was downright silly.
Well, he turned those "Captaincy Offer's" down to sit under the learning tree of "Captain Jean Luc Picard" and to deepen his relationship with his Imzadi =D and the rest of the crew. There's no way he could've known "Wolf 359" would happen.
But anyways, he's now happily married with kid
Maybe, maybe not. But Spock served under Kirk for how long?
Same with Kira Nerys & Sisko
Same with Chakotay under Janeway (But that's more due to circumstance)
Same with T'Pol & Archer (But she even quit her Vulcan posting to accept one under StarFleet)
Look how deep their relationships are by the end of the series.
That's Hollywood for you, they don't want to change their main cast despite it being more realistic that there would be change after a few years if it followed a traditional military service.
But if given Starfleet's attitude of letting people have control over their careers, some people can squat in their billets for many years.
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/columnist/cox/2017/07/30/airline-pilot-requirements/520125001/
Q: How long does it take for the first officer to move up to become the captain?
— Mike, Concord, N.H.
A: There is not a set time to upgrade to captain. The expansion of the operator, captains’ retirements and attrition all are factors. Some first officers have waited decades to upgrade, while others get opportunities in only a few years.
I found this Q&A to be ironically related to our discussion BillJ
Q: How long does it take for the first officer to move up to become the captain?
— Mike, Concord, N.H.
A: There is not a set time to upgrade to captain. The expansion of the operator, captains’ retirements and attrition all are factors. Some first officers have waited decades to upgrade, while others get opportunities in only a few years.
I found this Q&A to be ironically related to our discussion BillJ
This. I fucking hated it in retail, let alone a space quasi-military organisation.
From a certain point of view, the up-or-out policy makes some sense. If you have a competent individual among your personnel, you probably want him at the highest rank he is good at, as he probably would be the most useful for the company there.
Where it goes wrong (I think) is the assumption that people that "fail" the up-test must be incompetent, not the right material for the company, which is not necessarily true. They can be extremely competent and useful in their old job, but just not aspire to a higher job, or not have the necessary skill set for that job, etc.
Perhaps this is caused because people in the position to select such a policy for their company usually would be "climbers" themselves, and may have difficulty to understand that there can be people as competent as themselves with dedication to their jobs, but without any drive to get higher up.
Where it goes wrong (I think) is the assumption that people that "fail" the up-test must be incompetent, not the right material for the company, which is not necessarily true. They can be extremely competent and useful in their old job, but just not aspire to a higher job, or not have the necessary skill set for that job, etc.
Perhaps this is caused because people in the position to select such a policy for their company usually would be "climbers" themselves, and may have difficulty to understand that there can be people as competent as themselves with dedication to their jobs, but without any drive to get higher up.
Sadly those people don't have the ability to see the world through other people's lens.
So what? Is his life worth more than those others who died doing their duty?
The problem is, Starfleet has been shown to have a basically present day-type military pyramid structure. It has been shown again and again historically that that type of organization stagnates if there is not a reasonable flow of personnel upward through the ranks and the jobs that go with them. What is often not acknowledged is that if officers are free to park in a preferred position for as long as they want, other officers could be stuck in positions they don't prefer. It's not healthy for an organization as a whole.
Good thing that not everybody thinks that way.
With plenty of ships and Captains out there, there should be plenty of people who gets a chance.
Not everybody is going to be like Spock/Riker/Nerys/Chakotay.
I guess the 1st Officers we see on screen are the exception, not the norm.
I think it's just fine for many in Starfleet to peak at the Lieutenant (j.g.) level, if it's in a role that they are good at. Full Lieutenants and Lieutenant Commanders are often department heads. Not everyone needs to be a department head. And then Lieutenant Commander involves further command and leadership responsibilities that not everybody wants, or is capable of assuming competently.
And then there was Ensign Kim, who seemed to be manager of a department of one.
Kor
And then there was Ensign Kim, who seemed to be manager of a department of one.
Kor
1001001 for Admin!Not being promoted is sometimes a bad thing too....
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