Is promotion "Sometimes" a bad thing?

[Nyotarules]

Starfleet apparently doesn't have such a policy based on officers we've seen go years without promotion. The fact that Riker was able to spend almost twenty years as an XO even during times when we know experienced Captains were needed like in the aftermath of Wolf 359 or during the Dominion War. Likewise, Picard spent something like fifty years as a Captain, and in an alternate timeline only achieved one promotion after forty years of service.

I would watch a Star Trek reboot where Starfleet regulars are killed in action or promoted just as in real life armed forces and not stuck in the same position for decades. But would anyone else?

Janeway returns in 2378
In 2379, she orders Picard to the Romulan Homeworld to meet Shinzon.

In 1 year, she goes from Captain to 3-pip Vice Admiral?

The post TOS Star Trek writers were crap at dealing with ranks

If Riker took that early Captaincy offer, he would've been one of the dead amongst Wolf 359.
And Riker's relationship with Picard wouldn't be as deep as it is now.

If the writers wanted Riker to survive Wolf 359 he would have, the next XO would have a deep relationship or not with Picard depending on the script

Good thing that not everybody thinks that way.
With plenty of ships and Captains out there, there should be plenty of people who gets a chance.
Not everybody is going to be like Spock/Riker/Nerys/Chakotay.

I guess the 1st Officers we see on screen are the exception, not the norm

Starfleet should have personnel running in the mega millions for a place that is defending a trillion population UFP. Using the USA as an example estimate, 0.5% of the population of over 300 million are in the armed forces, so Starfleet numbers should be the size of a nation state or even a planet.

 

[BillJ]

I would watch a Star Trek reboot where Starfleet regulars are killed in action or promoted just as in real life armed forces and not stuck in the same position for decades. But would anyone else?

They’re watching Discovery and Picard.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But would anyone else?

I would

The post TOS Star Trek writers were crap at dealing with ranks

I concur

If the writers wanted Riker to survive Wolf 359 he would have, the next XO would have a deep relationship or not with Picard depending on the script

But we got what we got because Riker stuck around.

Starfleet should have personnel running in the mega millions for a place that is defending a trillion population UFP. Using the USA as an example estimate, 0.5% of the population of over 300 million are in the armed forces, so Starfleet numbers should be the size of a nation state or even a planet.

I concur, in my timeline / head canon.

By the start of the 26th century on:
2501/01-01 Sat 00:00;00.0 GMT = Start of the 26th century on Earth = StarDate V5 = +345 / 826 ¦ 847

The UFP has ~9 Quadrillion Federation citizens ~= 9,007,199,254,740,992 citizens
StarFleet has ~4 Trillion Officers ~= 4,536,675,080,258 Officers serving at the start of the 26th century.
~= 0.050367% of the population in StarFleet.

And StarFleet is now one part of U.I.F.I.S. (UFP InterStellar Forces Integrated Services).
I still have a bunch of "Separate Branches" of UIFIS
One branch for "SOLDIERS" job path who serve as the boots on the ground roles
One branch for "AVIATORS" job path who serve as the dedicated pilots who fly Shuttles / Fighters
One branch for the equivalent of "Coast Guards"
etc.

 

[Nyotarules]

^ In my head canon the state of California belongs to Starfleet, its large enough to hold millions of people and many offices.
San Francisco as HQ of Starfleet only works if its the largest city on Star Trek Earth
Even if 23rd century UFP had a population of 5 trillion and assuming only 0.0005% join Starfleet that is 25 million people.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

^ In my head canon the state of California belongs to Starfleet, its large enough to hold millions of people and many offices.
San Francisco as HQ of Starfleet only works if its the largest city on Star Trek Earth

In my Head Canon, UIFIS Academies for all the services, HQ's, Planetary Bases, StarBases are distributed across all the member worlds. No one planet will carry everything, that's a liability IMO. Distributed everything with multiple redundancies.

UIFIS HQ and all the member Service Branches are stationed and distributed across several Planetary Systems alongside some of the largest StarBases distributed across UFP space and move around from "Time to Time" and park at a local M-Class planets Lagrange point.

Each HQ being in a different StarBase of the largest and toughest size.

I prefer not having all of the Bases/HQ locked "Planet Side" where they are "Sitting Ducks".

Yes, all my Planets have terrific multi-layer Planetary Shields and Defenses that would give the entire Galactic Empire a run for it's money if they came bashing down my Planetary Doors, but I also have things spread about my largest StarBases & Planetary Bases across many systems.

All my StarBases can Warp around as needed, but generally stay put for quite a while.

The largest StarBases are larger than Island 1 from Macross Frontier

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/macross25.htm

The bigger one is "Island 1" from Macross frontier, and yes that is an entire Metropolitan size CITY within the Dome and the tracks above the dome are "Rail Service" across the entire dome.

And I consider "Island 1"-size to be one of the smaller "StarBases" in my universe.

 

[fireproof78]

I would watch a Star Trek reboot where Starfleet regulars are killed in action or promoted just as in real life armed forces and not stuck in the same position for decades. But would anyone else?

Yes. I had hoped that Discovery would be more serious with "no one is safe" but that apparently fell by the wayside and leaned back in to more traditional Trek.

 

[Farscape One]

I would watch a Star Trek reboot where Starfleet regulars are killed in action or promoted just as in real life armed forces and not stuck in the same position for decades. But would anyone else?

Spock started the show as a Lt. Cmdr. He became full Commander at some point in the middle of season 1. Was a Captain by STAR TREK II.

ALL leads of TOS were promoted by the movie era.

Worf was promoted to Security Chief after Lt. Yar was killed. He moved up in rank twice.

LaForge was promoted to Chief Engineer after season 1 ended. He moved in rank twice.

Troi became a full Commander in season 7.

Riker was an XO on the Hood, and was a Lt. Cmdr. there. Enterprise moved him up to full Commander.

Ben Sisko was promoted to Captain after commanding DS9 for 3 years.

Bashir was promoted to full Lt. after season 3.

The same with Jadzia Dax, only it was to Lt. Cmdr.

Ezri moved up from Ensign after the 3rd episode in season 7.

Tuvok was promoted to Lt. Cmdr. in the early part of season 4.


Really, the only Starfleet leads who never got promoted onscreen was...

Yar (Killed in season 1, not enough time to be a factor of this conversation.)
Data
Crusher (Rank, anyway... she was the Head of Starfleet Medical for a year, but that didn't stick.)
Paris (Though going from inmate to Lt. j.g. is arguably a promotion. I don't count his reinstatement to that rank after he got busted down to Ensign.)
Kim
Chakotay (Unique situation of Voyager.)
Torres (Same as Chakotay.)
Archer ("IN A MIRROR, DARKLY, PART II" dialogue says otherwise.)
Tucker (Though in "FIRST FLIGHT", we saw him as a Lt., so this arguably can count as him moving up onscreen.)
Reed
Sato (Same as Archer.)
Mayweather


Honestly, THE most egregious oversight is Data not becoming a full Commander. He was 2nd Officer of the ship, but Troi got to be above him in rank? That ship was big enough to have 2 full Commanders in that command structure. (Troi would have made three, but I can agree with that given how many people served there.)

 

[The Wormhole]

I would watch a Star Trek reboot where Starfleet regulars are killed in action or promoted just as in real life armed forces and not stuck in the same position for decades. But would anyone else?

I don't see why not. Other shows have their main characters advance in their careers all the time, both as a means of writing them off the shows and while keeping them on the shows. It's Star Trek, and Berman era Trek at that which for some reason thinks people and their careers have to remain static for close to or even longer than a decade.

 

[Nyotarules]

Spock started the show as a Lt. Cmdr. He became full Commander at some point in the middle of season 1. Was a Captain by STAR TREK II.

ALL leads of TOS were promoted by the movie era.

Worf was promoted to Security Chief after Lt. Yar was killed. He moved up in rank twice.

LaForge was promoted to Chief Engineer after season 1 ended. He moved in rank twice.

Troi became a full Commander in season 7.

Riker was an XO on the Hood, and was a Lt. Cmdr. there. Enterprise moved him up to full Commander.

Ben Sisko was promoted to Captain after commanding DS9 for 3 years.

Bashir was promoted to full Lt. after season 3.

The same with Jadzia Dax, only it was to Lt. Cmdr.

Ezri moved up from Ensign after the 3rd episode in season 7.

Tuvok was promoted to Lt. Cmdr. in the early part of season 4.


Really, the only Starfleet leads who never got promoted onscreen was...

Yar (Killed in season 1, not enough time to be a factor of this conversation.)
Data
Crusher (Rank, anyway... she was the Head of Starfleet Medical for a year, but that didn't stick.)
Paris (Though going from inmate to Lt. j.g. is arguably a promotion. I don't count his reinstatement to that rank after he got busted down to Ensign.)
Kim
Chakotay (Unique situation of Voyager.)
Torres (Same as Chakotay.)
Archer ("IN A MIRROR, DARKLY, PART II" dialogue says otherwise.)
Tucker (Though in "FIRST FLIGHT", we saw him as a Lt., so this arguably can count as him moving up onscreen.)
Reed
Sato (Same as Archer.)
Mayweather


Honestly, THE most egregious oversight is Data not becoming a full Commander. He was 2nd Officer of the ship, but Troi got to be above him in rank? That ship was big enough to have 2 full Commanders in that command structure. (Troi would have made three, but I can agree with that given how many people served there.)

Ok but with some of the characters a change in rank did not result in a change in position. Kirk only had one XO , Spock, no one else had the role for most of the time but Spock, who as Captain deserved his own ship. Sulu would have remained a pilot if the actor did not make a fuss. Chekov took a promotion from navigator, to XO on the Reliant then demoted to Security chief and Navigator in the movies (minor changes), Uhura was she ever promoted to Operations chief and make someone else in charge of communications reporting to her? And Scotty and McCoy had the same position from 2260 to 2293.
No wonder Kirk resented Decker!

Riker XO for 15 years! Troi counsellor for 15 years! Crusher as Head of medical, the boss of all the Starfleet doctors? Is that not a Captain or Admiral role, why take a demotion back to Commander? It made more in universe sense if she was on secondment at Starfleet Medical for a short period, at the same rank, but not the overall boss.
As for the ENT crew the less said about that TATV travesty the better.
DS9 at least after 7 years there was a sense of moving on.
VOY had the best excuse, they were the only Starfleet crew in the quardrant.
At least the reboot novels took care of the stagnant careers of most the characters.

 

[Sgt_G]

Kirk only had one XO , Spock

*cough* Gary Mitchell *cough*

 

[1001001]

Ok but with some of the characters a change in rank did not result in a change in position. Kirk only had one XO , Spock, no one else had the role for most of the time but Spock, who as Captain deserved his own ship. Sulu would have remained a pilot if the actor did not make a fuss. Chekov took a promotion from navigator, to XO on the Reliant then demoted to Security chief and Navigator in the movies (minor changes), Uhura was she ever promoted to Operations chief and make someone else in charge of communications reporting to her? And Scotty and McCoy had the same position from 2260 to 2293.
No wonder Kirk resented Decker!

Riker XO for 15 years! Troi counsellor for 15 years! Crusher as Head of medical, the boss of all the Starfleet doctors? Is that not a Captain or Admiral role, why take a demotion back to Commander? It made more in universe sense if she was on secondment at Starfleet Medical for a short period, at the same rank, but not the overall boss.
As for the ENT crew the less said about that TATV travesty the better.
DS9 at least after 7 years there was a sense of moving on.
VOY had the best excuse, they were the only Starfleet crew in the quardrant.
At least the reboot novels took care of the stagnant careers of most the characters.

Beneath that cool exterior beats the heart of a true nerd.

 

[Nyotarules]

*cough* Gary Mitchell *cough*

He wasn't the XO in WNMHGB, Spock was

 

[BillJ]

*cough* Gary Mitchell *cough*

Lots of disagreement there. I bet we could get a good six hundred posts out of discussing it.

Warm up the coffee, @1001001, gonna be a long night!

 

[fireproof78]

I don't see why not. Other shows have their main characters advance in their careers all the time, both as a means of writing them off the shows and while keeping them on the shows. It's Star Trek, and Berman era Trek at that which for some reason thinks people and their careers have to remain static for close to or even longer than a decade.

Indeed. It strikes me as rather odd the insistence that everything must remain static.

 

[Farscape One]

Ok but with some of the characters a change in rank did not result in a change in position. Kirk only had one XO , Spock, no one else had the role for most of the time but Spock, who as Captain deserved his own ship. Sulu would have remained a pilot if the actor did not make a fuss. Chekov took a promotion from navigator, to XO on the Reliant then demoted to Security chief and Navigator in the movies (minor changes), Uhura was she ever promoted to Operations chief and make someone else in charge of communications reporting to her? And Scotty and McCoy had the same position from 2260 to 2293.
No wonder Kirk resented Decker!

Riker XO for 15 years! Troi counsellor for 15 years! Crusher as Head of medical, the boss of all the Starfleet doctors? Is that not a Captain or Admiral role, why take a demotion back to Commander? It made more in universe sense if she was on secondment at Starfleet Medical for a short period, at the same rank, but not the overall boss.
As for the ENT crew the less said about that TATV travesty the better.
DS9 at least after 7 years there was a sense of moving on.
VOY had the best excuse, they were the only Starfleet crew in the quardrant.
At least the reboot novels took care of the stagnant careers of most the characters.

Scotty was completely at home as Chief Engineer. It was all he wanted to be.

McCoy did retire but was drafted back in by Kirk in TMP. He later ended up being an Admiral.

 

[Tenacity]

Crusher (Rank, anyway... she was the Head of Starfleet Medical for a year, but that didn't stick.)

I doubt she was the head of starfleet medical, and most likely was one of many doctors assigned there on a one year rotation

That she was the head of starfleet medical (imo) was just a running joke after she returned to the enterprise.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I doubt she was the head of starfleet medical, and most likely was one of many doctors assigned there on a one year rotation

That she was the head of starfleet medical (imo) was just a running joke after she returned to the enterprise.

I concur, I think she was requested as a "Ace" Doctor to be brought in for a stint at a premier hospital.

 

[Farscape One]

Agreed. I'm just going by what has been said on screen.

 

[The Wormhole]

*cough* Gary Mitchell *cough*

He wasn't the XO in WNMHGB, Spock was

Lots of disagreement there. I bet we could get a good six hundred posts out of discussing it.

That has indeed been a major point of contention for years now. Even the novels keep flip-flopping on the matter.

 

[MAGolding]

... Crusher as Head of medical, the boss of all the Starfleet doctors? Is that not a Captain or Admiral role, why take a demotion back to Commander? It made more in universe sense if she was on secondment at Starfleet Medical for a short period, at the same rank, but not the overall boss....

Possibly TNG era people, even in Starfleet, are not as career minded as TOS era people or 21st century people.

I think that Crusher did get a big but temporary promotion in rank as "cheif of Starfleet Medical". That certainly sounds like a flag officer worthy position. No doubt it was a temporary or acting promotion dependant on her positinas chief of Starfleet Medical, and when she decided to return to the Enterprise and her son she automatically dropped her flag officer rank.