Is prejudice like this widespread?

[Miss Chicken]

Quite often I have been asked details of my doctor so a report /result can be sent to HIM and I have to correct people and say 'to HER'. It isn't as bad as it was 20 years ago but even today many people forstly assume doctors are male.

I guess this is partly because of the lack of a gender-neutral pronoun.

 

[MacLeod]

why not use the word them, in place of him/her

 

[In_Correct]

It's not really your job to decide for other people whether something is considered controversial or not. It's controversial because white people have made it a persistent negative racial stereotype against black people for over a century, and continue to do so to this day (see: any number of memes about President Obama). Just because almost everyone enjoys fried chicken and watermelon or Kool-Aid (which is another common one) doesn't mean it can't also be used as an ignorant stereotype. Stereotypes are rarely required to make sense or be intelligent and rational.


Well, since she's a verifiable and respected ObGyn doctor who can be looked up online, the story is being reported by multiple reputable news sources (which doesn't automatically make it true, but gives you less reason for concern than some clickbaity blog post), and your anecdotal evidence about flight attendants can be easily contradicted with numerous accounts of flight attendants profiling passengers or saying inappropriate things (which is not to say that the vast majority are not completely professional and polite), unless you have some actual evidence to back that up, why would you disregard her story?

Have you ever heard the old riddle that goes like this?

A father and a son were in a car accident, the father dies and the son is critically injured so he is brought to the emergency room, however, when he gets there the surgeon says, "I can't operate on him, he's my son." How can this be?

The reason that riddle exists was because of sexist thinking that couldn't conceive that the surgeon could be a woman and the boy's mother. The same kind of negative perception exists with black people in the medical field, and she also has to contend with the lingering (but thankfully diminishing now that there are so many female physicians) sexism mentioned above. So unless you've got evidence to the contrary, it's best not to dismiss her claims.

I do not know how Kool-Aid is a stereotype caused by Whites. As far as I know, the Kool-Aid thing came from a brainwashing attempt by poisoning Kool-Aid.

I hate Clickbaity Blog Posts lol.

 

[Jim Gamma]

why not use the word them, in place of him/her

Because "them" is plural... I used to get told off for that in English class. (Doesn't mean I don't do it.) Apparently you're meant to say "him or her", or "just use him as shorthand". *rolls eyes*

 

[Amaris]

Because "them" is plural... I used to get told off for that in English class. (Doesn't mean I don't do it.) Apparently you're meant to say "him or her", or "just use him as shorthand". *rolls eyes*

"They" and "them" are considered acceptable terms these days: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

Additionally, the practical reason that people often use this form of words is if you are referring to someone of an unknown gender, to use he, him, his, etc. is nowadays considered sexist. Using them, they, or their is a way to avoid making an assumption of gender as there is no gender explicit in these pronouns. Find out more about gender-neutral language. Second, people prefer not to use he or she, him or her, etc. because they are long-winded and can be distracting, especially if they have to be repeated several times in the same sentence or paragraph.

Despite objections, there is a trend to use ‘singular they’. In fact, it is historically long established. It goes back at least to the 16th century, and writers such as Shakespeare, Sidney, Byron, and Ruskin used it:

There's not a man I meet but doth salute me

As if I were their well-acquainted friend (Shakespeare’s The Comedy of Errors)

Whether it is grammatically correct is is a matter of opinion. Two things are matters of fact, however: many people use it, and many others dislike it intensely. If you are writing something, it is therefore advisable to consider who might read it, and what their views might be.

 

[Jim Gamma]

Oh, I quite agree - the eye-roll was at my old English teacher.

I was in a shop on Saturday with someone, who was trying to buy a birthday present for a friend's 9YO daughter... she asked, "Does this book seem boyish to you?" It was a book of facts, suitable for children of any gender (not on any specific subject). She thought because it wasn't dressing up or something, it wouldn't be "girlish" enough. So yes, casual prejudice is still around, unfortunately, even in the UK, and even perpetuated by those about whom these prejudices exist sometimes.

 

[Amaris]

Oh, I quite agree - the eye-roll was at my old English teacher.

I was in a shop on Saturday with someone, who was trying to buy a birthday present for a friend's 9YO daughter... she asked, "Does this book seem boyish to you?" It was a book of facts, suitable for children of any gender (not on any specific subject). She thought because it wasn't dressing up or something, it wouldn't be "girlish" enough. So yes, casual prejudice is still around, unfortunately, even in the UK, and even perpetuated by those about whom these prejudices exist sometimes.

I had a discussion (read: I discussed, he vehemently disagreed) with my brother about gender roles the other day. I tried to explain to him that we create gender roles, and that our cultural values shift depending upon where we were born, how we were raised, and what we learn through experience as we grow older. I even got him to admit that culture changes depending on where one is born, but he refused to budge on the notion that letting boys play with "girl" toys was acceptable. He is of the opinion that this newer drive to remove distinctions between genders is a path to destruction.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I do not know how Kool-Aid is a stereotype caused by Whites. As far as I know, the Kool-Aid thing came from a brainwashing attempt by poisoning Kool-Aid.

It wasn't an attempt. The Koolaid was actually poisoned and over 900 people died, most drinking it voluntarily and children being fed it by parents.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

I know that the expression "drink the Kool-Aid" came from the Jonestown incident. But Kool-Aid as a drink somehow became associated with black culture. Again, I don't know why. I thought all kids drank it (at least they did back in the 90's when I was a kid).

 

[Robert Maxwell]

It wasn't an attempt. The Koolaid was actually poisoned and over 900 people died, most drinking it voluntarily and children being fed it by parents.

It was actually Flavor-Aid. Poor Kool-Aid has been stuck with this smear of their brand for decades.

Also, it's unclear how many members of the Jim Jones cult drank it voluntarily. There is evidence that a good number were forced. It is popularly considered a mass suicide, but the reality is that it's just as much a mass murder, too.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I do not know how Kool-Aid is a stereotype caused by Whites. As far as I know, the Kool-Aid thing came from a brainwashing attempt by poisoning Kool-Aid.

That's conflating two different things.

One is the "Don't drink the Kool-Aid" phrase and meme referring to blindly following a person or group, which dates back to the Jonestown mass murder/suicide in 1978, and for the reasons stated above is a horrible misnomer since US Representative Leo Ryan's investigative team was ambushed and shot to death by the cult's enforcers, children and the elderly who couldn't consent were poisoned in advance, and those who refused to commit suicide were forcefully given injections of cyanide. Plus, it wasn't even Kool-Aid, as mentioned.

The second one is similar to the fried chicken and watermelon stereotype in that the red-colored flavors of Kool-Aid and similar drinks, often colloquially referred to as "Red Drink" regardless of more specific flavoring like cherry or strawberry, are a staple of soul food meals and thus have been used as a stereotypical criticism of black people and black cuisine. It's not as well known as the fried chicken and watermelon stereotype, but it's there. Once recent event happened on Fox & Friends last year between Brian Kilmeade and Harris Faulkner. I don't think Kilmeade even did it out of any sort of malicious intent (not that they're above that sort of thing on Fox & Friends when it comes to racial commentary), but rather out of ignorance.

Here's an even more recent example where Kool-Aid, watermelon, and fried chicken were all used together and in a deliberate and malicious way:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/investiga...ed-Charges-Harlem-New-York-NYC-397117971.html

 

[ichab]

It's not really your job to decide for other people whether something is considered controversial or not.

I never said it was my job. If people want to be offended by words that's their choice. Just don't expect me to follow suit.

It's controversial because white people have made it a persistent negative racial stereotype against black people for over a century, and continue to do so to this day (see: any number of memes about President Obama).

All races and immigrants have dealt with stereotypes in america. The difference is some have been more successful than others in moving past their race and social background and not use it as a crutch.

Just because almost everyone enjoys fried chicken and watermelon or Kool-Aid (which is another common one) doesn't mean it can't also be used as an ignorant stereotype. Stereotypes are rarely required to make sense or be intelligent and rational

And just because fried chicken, watermellon and kool-aid have been used as racial stereotypes doesn't mean I have to stop discussing them freely.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I never said it was my job. If people want to be offended by words that's their choice. Just don't expect me to follow suit.

Oh, please. You're offended by a black athletes taking a knee during the national anthem because it makes you have to suffer the terrible inconvenience of thinking about police abuse and shooting of minorities for a minute when you just want to settle down and watch Concussion Ball in peace, so don't act like you're above it all. You've also been repeatedly offended by words used against conservatives and Republicans here in the past, which unlike being black, is a choice.

You tried to make it your "job" by imposing your values on other people and judging when it is or is not appropriate for them to be offended by something.

All races and immigrants have dealt with stereotypes in america. The difference is some have been more successful than others in moving past their race and social background and not use it as a crutch.

How is saying that something is wrong using it as a crutch? They don't get royalties every time some racist asshole makes a friend chicken and watermelon joke.

But please, elaborate on all the great benefits black people have been getting as a result of stereotyping, since you're the expert.

And just because fried chicken, watermellon and kool-aid have been used as racial stereotypes doesn't mean I have to stop discussing them freely.

Who the hell ever said you have to stop? It's already been acknowledged multiple times that almost everyone in America, white, black, or otherwise, enjoys eating fried chicken, watermelon, and drinking Kool-Aid, and that the only time it becomes problematic is when it's used as a negative stereotype of black people, so no one is saying you can't talk about how much you or your family or friends enjoy it. So what are you saying here, that you are free to make racist stereotyping jokes about black people? That's certainly true from a legal sense, but it's not going to stop others from calling someone who does that a racist asshole.

 

[ichab]

Oh, please. You're offended by a black athletes taking a knee during the national anthem because it makes you have to suffer the terrible inconvenience of thinking about police abuse and shooting of minorities for a minute when you just want to settle down and watch Concussion Ball in peace, so don't act like you're above it all.

Now you're just straight up lying. Quote a single post in that thread where I said I was offended.

You tried to make it your "job" by imposing your values on other people and judging when it is or is not appropriate for them to be offended by something.

More lies. Discussing a topic is not"imposing my values." I specifically said if you want to be offended then be my guest.

But please, elaborate on all the great benefits black people have been getting as a result of stereotyping, since you're the expert.

I never said black people receive great benefits. I said that they are not unique in regards to racial stereotypes. Do you actually read what is typed or are you one of those posters who likes to ascribe negativity to others because you can't discuss topics without starting an argument?

Who the hell ever said you have to stop? It's already been acknowledged multiple times that almost everyone in America, white, black, or otherwise, enjoys eating fried chicken, watermelon, and drinking Kool-Aid, and that the only time it becomes problematic is when it's used as a negative stereotype of black people, so no one is saying you can't talk about how much you or your family or friends enjoy it. So what are you saying here, that you are free to make racist stereotyping jokes about black people?

Wow. If that's what you gleamed from what I wrote then you do need to step away from the keyboard and get a grip.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Now you're just straight up lying. Quote a single post in that thread where I said I was offended.

You expressed your irritation and annoyance on multiple occasions. Just because you didn't use the o-word doesn't mean you weren't obviously offended.

I never said black people receive great benefits. I said that they are not unique in regards to racial stereotypes. Do you actually read what is typed or are you one of those posters who likes to ascribe negativity to others because you can't discuss topics without starting an argument?

If you think black people have not been uniquely oppressed in this country, maybe you should read more history books.

It's true, others have been victims of racism. Others have been enslaved. But no other race has been subject to such vast, systematic discrimination, stretching from before the country's founding right up to today.

Not to mention, your suggestion that black people have somehow failed to rise above when others have done so has a none-too-subtle implication that black people are to blame for the current state of affairs. Or did you mean something else by that?

Wow. If that's what you gleamed from what I wrote then you do need to step away from the keyboard and get a grip.

You have no one but yourself to blame, given the coy word games you like to play around here.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Now you're just straight up lying. Quote a single post in that thread where I said I was offended.

The thread is called "Politics Have Invaded Football" which is hyperbolic as hell considering we're talking about two-minute silent protest undertaken by part of the team, and misplaced since politics have always been a part of athletic events, you just don't mind when it's politics that don't offend you.

Then you follow that up with how annoying it is to have politics shoved in your face (by comparing it to ads):

On the other, as a viewer, I'd like to escape politics and just enjoy the game. It's bad enough that I have annoying ads shoved in my face during commercial breaks but now demonstrations on the field?

So, you weren't offended by that?

More lies. Discussing a topic is not"imposing my values." I specifically said if you want to be offended then be my guest.

You were explicitly imposing your values and using them as an example for why black people shouldn't be offended:

My entire family is from the South and we ALL ate fried chicken and watermelon. I didn't even realize the black connection until a documentary I watched years ago "AMERICAN EATS" stated that deep fat frying came from Africa. To me that's no more controversial than stating where pizza(italy), or tacos(mexico) came from. Most of american food has come from other countries. That's just fact.

All races and immigrants have dealt with stereotypes in america. The difference is some have been more successful than others in moving past their race and social background and not use it as a crutch.

What exactly did you mean by those comments except to say that you don't consider it controversial and that black people are using it as a crutch?

I never said black people receive great benefits. I said that they are not unique in regards to racial stereotypes. Do you actually read what is typed or are you one of those posters who likes to ascribe negativity to others because you can't discuss topics without starting an argument?

It's not my fault that you spout off ignorant statements and then backtrack when called on them. If you don't have the courage of your convictions then maybe your convictions kind of suck.

Black people are unique (with the possible exception of Native Americans) in terms of the severity of past and ongoing mistreatment and racial discrimination against them in this country, so yeah, it's a vastly different situation from Irish or Italian stereotypes.

Wow. If that's what you gleamed from what I wrote then you do need to step away from the keyboard and get a grip.

No one has argued against the premise that most people in the US like fried chicken, watermelon, and Kool-Aid and therefore it's perfectly okay for you to talk about that in terms of personal or family preferences.

No one has argued against your First Amendment rights to say it.

So, what other thing is there left to conclude other then the third option, which is that people should be free from backlash when making fried chicken and watermelon jokes about black people, and that black people should stop using it as a crutch because everybody faces stereotypes, which are your words?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Howcome it was OK to inject 100s of black men with Syphillis to see what happens?

What did they think would happen?

 

[ichab]

The thread is called "Politics Have Invaded Football" which is hyperbolic as hell considering we're talking about two-minute silent protest undertaken by part of the team, and misplaced since politics have always been a part of athletic events, you just don't mind when it's politics that don't offend you.

Then you follow that up with how annoying it is to have politics shoved in your face (by comparing it to ads):

On the other, as a viewer, I'd like to escape politics and just enjoy the game. It's bad enough that I have annoying ads shoved in my face during commercial breaks but now demonstrations on the field?

So, you weren't offended by that?

Do you not understand the difference between being offended and being annoyed?

You were explicitly imposing your values and using them as an example for why black people shouldn't be offended:

My entire family is from the South and we ALL ate fried chicken and watermelon. I didn't even realize the black connection until a documentary I watched years ago "AMERICAN EATS" stated that deep fat frying came from Africa. To me that's no more controversial than stating where pizza(italy), or tacos(mexico) came from. Most of american food has come from other countries. That's just fact.

It IS fact. Sorry if that offends you.

All races and immigrants have dealt with stereotypes in america. The difference is some have been more successful than others in moving past their race and social background and not use it as a crutch.

What exactly did you mean by those comments except to say that you don't consider it controversial and that black people are using it as a crutch?

Seems you're one of those that thinks all blacks are some monolithic group that thinks and acts the same. They are not. In fact I rarely meet anyone with a racial stick up his or her ass until I come on boards like this. So to your answer your question, I was referring to people of all groups who aren't stuck in the past and aren't offended at the drop of a hat.

It's not my fault that you spout off ignorant statements ...

And now you've moved to insults

...and then backtrack when called on them.

Not backtracking. Just trying to clarify because you obviously have a very narrow and limited view of the world and the people who inhabit it.

If you don't have the courage of your convictions then maybe your convictions kind of suck.

And here is where we part ways. You have managed to take a perfectly good topic of conversation and in typical TNZ fashion ascribe negative meaning where there isn't because you can't stand differing points of view on certain subjects.

Have a good day.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Howcome it was OK to inject 100s of black men with Syphillis to see what happens?

What did they think would happen?

You're conflating two different terrible and murderous experiments conducted by the United States government.

The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment between 1932-72 never injected anyone with syphilis, but it did leave hundreds of black men who were already infected with it untreated even as penicillin became a widely accepted treatment for the disease by 1947. It continued to lie to these men and not tell them they had syphilis until it was finally exposed to the public at large by the Washington Star and New York Times in 1972, but by then 128 of the men had died, 40 of their wives had been infected, and 19 of their children had been born with congenital syphilis.

The second one, where they did deliberately infect men and women with syphilis and other STDs, was the Guatemalan Syphilis Experiments during the Truman Administration with the cooperation of the Guatemalan government under President Juan José Arévalo, which resulted in the deaths of 83 Guatemalan citizens.

As far as your question goes, it was considered "okay" insofar as black people were still (and indeed are still to this day in many respects) considered second class citizens and thus the "First Do No Harm" ethical guideline all doctors are supposed to live by was superseded by racism. They would have never considered medical experimentation of this sort conducted on white people ethical. Even the doctor who was the chief whistleblower in 1972 didn't do so because he considered lying to 600 black men about their medical condition and denying them treatment (resulting in deaths and the spread of the infection to loved ones) ethically wrong, he was just bothered that the experiment was being conducted poorly. Likewise, they made similar excuses about "the greater good" in Guatemala, which of course never ensnares white (non-Jewish) people (at least, not in the US. Japan and the Nazis and numerous other nations and regimes to this day did their own horrific human experiments, of course).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I asked a question:
What exactly did you mean by those comments except to say that you don't consider it controversial and that black people are using it as a crutch?

You gave this answer:

Seems you're one of those that thinks all blacks are some monolithic group that thinks and acts the same. They are not. In fact I rarely meet anyone with a racial stick up his or her ass until I come on boards like this. So to your answer your question, I was referring to people of all groups who aren't stuck in the past and aren't offended at the drop of a hat.

Nice dodge that didn't answer the question of what you meant but once again insinuates that anyone who finds this stereotype offensive must be wrong and have a "stick up their ass." Yet somehow you're still arguing that you're not imposing your values on others and telling them what they should or should not be offended by. Why are you arguing that you didn't say the thing you so clearly said and reiterated? It feels like arguing with Kelly-Anne Conway after the daily Trump dump where she argues furiously that he didn't say the thing we're all seeing him say in text or on video.

Of course not everyone is offended by it (though your small anecdotal sampling doesn't mean a damn thing). So what? Some black people might not care if a white person calls them the n-word to their face. Does that mean no one else is allowed to be bothered by it without being accused of having a stick up their ass? Does that mean a meme of President Obama being bribed with watermelon and fried chicken is not racist? You're being ridiculously entitled and defensive.

Also, when ichab drones on about these racial stereotypes and discrimination like they're a thing of the past in the passage above, contrast that with the fact that the Tuskegee Experiment I mentioned above ended a year before I was born, and that the shooting of unarmed black men that are being protested by NFL players he complains about are happening now. This isn't some ancient history of racial oppression. This is within our lifetimes and happening right now. You can't stick your head in the sand or plug your ears and pretend the problem magically doesn't exist.